Is depression in the Bible? Can Christians struggle with depression? And if they can, should they first go to secular psychologists or the church for help? All these questions and more will be answered in this episode of the With All Wisdom Podcast.
Transcript
Derek: Is depression in the Bible? Can Christians struggle with depression? And if they can, should they go first to secular psychologists or to the church for help? These questions and more will be answered in today’s With All Wisdom podcast. Welcome to a special edition of With All Wisdom, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown, I am pastor and elder at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California. I’m also the academic dean at Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And I’m here again today with Cliff McManis. He is pastor-teacher at Creekside Bible Church, and he is a professor of theology at Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary, and here today we’re going to talk about depression. In fact, we’re kicking off a new series on KFAX, what the Bible says about depression.But before we get to our topic, I want to encourage you to check out WithAllWisdom.org. There we have a larger growing collection of resources, audio resources, articles, to help you grow in your walk with the Lord, to help you grow spiritually, and we want you to check out those resources we have available there. So now to our topic for the day. Cliff, why did you want to discuss this important issue of depression?
Cliff: Well, Derek, we are about to embark on a short series on the topic of depression, and the series on the radio program is called What the Bible Says About Depression, and that was a result of preaching that I did here at the church a few years ago, in response to many of our people with practical questions on this issue, and they just kept asking me, Pastor Cliff, can you do a series, What the Bible Has to Say About Depression? Does it say anything at all about depression? And I proceeded to do that, and one of the reasons I wanted to do that was because in all the years that I’ve been counseling in my role as a shepherd, as a pastor, talking to people, helping them work through their problems, I would say a larger percentage of those that I had been counseling, and even to this day, maybe a little more than a majority of people who come and ask for help from me as a pastor, depression is at the very center of the issue where they’re a problem and they’re concerned, and depression in the form of whether it’s anxiety, grief, fear, depression has, I think, a lot of ways it manifests itself, and so it is completely central to people and their problems, and I wanted to deal with it from a biblical point of view. So I ended up preaching a few series, and it’s been one of the most receptive or appreciated series that I’ve done in our church, and so there’s a lot of good feedback about it, and even further questions, I think I created more questions than I answered for some people, because this whole issue of actually depression can be controversial, even in the Christian world, from the basics of even defining what depression is, and then also is the church adequate or in a position to deal with depression, and you’ve no doubt seen that as well in your role as a shepherd. So I just wanted to just do a summary really today, just to kick off this series and encourage people to listen to the whole series if they can to get the big picture.
Derek: Great. Well, we will have plenty to say about that, and did you have something you wanted to say to the listeners of our show?
Cliff: Yeah, I thought it’d be good. We have a book that I wrote. You helped edit that little booklet that’s been really helpful for folks. It’s just called What the Bible Says About Depression, and it’s not only about depression because it provides the biblical solution of how you can have joy in Christ, really. That should be the subtitle. So we produced that book, What the Bible Says About Depression, and I just wanted to offer that as a ministry from our church to our listeners out there who might be blessed by it, so I’m just gonna make available the first 20 listeners who contact us through email. We will send them, or even I will send them, just a free complimentary copy of what the Bible says about depression. So all you got to do is email us and say, can I please get a copy of the book on depression? I heard you on KFAX.
Derek: And the email address is radio@creeksidebiblechurch.com. That’s radio@creeksidebiblechurch.com.
Cliff: Excellent.
Derek: So, Cliff, you had already mentioned it. There are some who would suggest or say explicitly that the church is not in a place to treat or talk about or remedy depression. And why do you think that is the case, and what would your response to that be?
Cliff: Why it is the case is a many pronged complex answer because there isn’t just one answer to it. But it’s true. You and I see this as a pastor. We got Christians, real Christians, struggling with depression and various forms of depression. And many times we find that they are not going to the church, going to pastors, going to elders, going to the Bible for answers. They’re going to the so-called secular professionals. We’ve seen that time and time again. That if I have a problem with depression in my life, I’m not going to go see my pastor or elder. I’m going to go to the professional psychologist or the professional psychiatrist. That’s very common even in the Christian world today. Maybe 150 years ago, that wasn’t so common. You’d actually go to your pastor for the deepest troubles in your life and find solace in the truths of the gospel, the Bible, the power of the Holy Spirit, prayer, the Christian community. Not so today. You’ve got problems in your marriage. You’re running off to the therapist to get solutions. You’ve got an anger problem. You’re going to the nearest anger management class that’s available that’s not even necessarily with the church. You’ve got problems with alcohol. You’re going to AA. I mean, this used to be common in the world, but now it’s actually common in the church. Even pastors, well-known pastors. Recently I heard one that’s in Dallas. He’s been around 30, 40 years. Pretty well-known evangelical pastor, admitting that he is now on various medications for his anxiety and depression. And he’s encouraging his folks to do the same. And I thought that’s the epitome of, wow, that’s pretty sad. Because I think that Christ has the answer to some of these struggles with depression. And I think we need to explore that more than is going on in the church today. But the causes for it could be, I know Sigmund Freud and his study in the 1900s, and his influence was highly influential, especially as it trickled down into the popular world where his point of view was, he was one of the first influential so-called scientists and professionals to basically change the definition of sin and turn sin issues and human weakness issues into medical terminology. And that we assess things and problems of life strictly from a medical point of view, not a religious or spiritual one. He did great damage, and we see some of the consequences of that. That’s not the only answer, but that’s a highly influential one.
Derek: Why is this the case?
Cliff: Another one. Why is this the case? I think because there’s a lot of weak churches out there. A lot of pastors maybe aren’t being trained adequately. So a combination of reasons. A combination of reasons.
Derek: Yeah, they’re not being shown that there are resources in scripture to deal with these various issues. And I think your point about how sin has been reframed and repackaged with different language. So no longer are people angry and no longer are people lacking self-control. Rather, they may be diagnosed with a psychological category and removing any kind of reference to sin or biblical categories. And so that confuses the issue. And it makes it sound like that we don’t have anything biblically to say to those issues because the way they have been recategorized. And so it can be confusing. And then you add to that that pastors aren’t being shown the resources in scripture to handle all these various issues like anger, self-control, depression, and these other kinds of issues. When those two things are at play, then you aren’t going to have people flocking to the church for these, for help in these areas. They’re going to be going elsewhere.
Cliff: Yeah, that’s an important issue that you mentioned. These new categories or miscategorizations of ailments, probably one of the most common ones today, and it’s highly controversial, is mental illness or mental sickness. Which from a medical point of view, actually that doesn’t even make sense because the mental is the non-physical. The brain is physical. A brain disease, a brain element, a brain tumor, a brain dysfunction, a brain malady, that’s one thing. But to call it mental illness, that’s a misnomer and that’s a category that actually isn’t legitimate. It definitely doesn’t line up with scripture. Are there problems with people’s thinking that is confused and errant? Yeah, absolutely. But these, categorizing them the wrong way is not helpful at all.
Derek: So one of the things that has been categorized from a psychological viewpoint is this area of depression. And it has been categorized in such a way that it makes it sound as though the scriptures and the church can’t adequately deal with it, at least not provide a lasting remedy. And so you’ve mentioned that people will go to other places of help for that. So let’s talk specifically about depression. You’ve mentioned to me before about Christians, even pastors you’ve heard speak about depression, actually in a way that, if I might say, is quite depressing because of how they categorize it and push it out of the realm of Christian counseling. How would you, or could you tell us more about that in which you’ve seen in that regard?
Cliff: Yeah, so it’s on occasion I’ll have somebody that I’m counseling and they might be coming for their depression, or that topic will come up and this is a Christian and they’ve got a problem and they need help, and they might tell me, the pastor, that oh, depression’s not in the Bible, because I will offer to help them. You know what? Depression is in the Bible and that will surprise them. So I’m just surprised at how many Christians think that the issue of depression is not in the Bible and the Bible doesn’t offer any help in this area. So they’re looking for something else. And this is a pretty widespread understanding in our, you know, world-renowned medical journals don’t help, because if you go to the World Health Organization and other prominent authoritative resources on medical issues, they all define depression the same way. They do it from a medical point of view. None of the sources define depression from it having a spiritual component. So they completely ignore any spiritual realities that might be involved, and that’s our job. We’re doctors of the soul, if you will, as pastors, and we know that there are definitely real spiritual issues that play into depression, but from the world’s point of view, they don’t even consider the spiritual component. That’s where a pastor, the church, and the Bible, and the Holy Spirit can make a big difference. We need to diagnose it accordingly. But listen, I just got one quote here that’s pretty indicative of maybe American Christianity and how a lot of it thinks.
This is from America’s pastor, the most famous pastor in America, probably the most beloved and dear pastor of a lot of American Christians for the last couple of decades. I’m not going to tell you his name, but recently in a very well-known magazine, this was a quote from him because he wrote an article on depression and being Christian, and he said basically, quote,
Becoming a Christian has no impact on dealing with depression, end quote. So this is one of the main influential evangelical pastors here in America, if not in the world, telling us and telling Christians that when you become a Christian, your new relationship with Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God who lives in you, that has zero impact on you dealing with your depression if you have a problem with depression.
Derek: So that’s remarkable.
Cliff: It is remarkable. So maybe your initial thoughts on that statement.
Derek: Yeah, that’s remarkable because if you just consider what happens in conversion, you’re being brought from death to life spiritually. You’re coming into a new relationship with your creator. You have been delivered from the guilt of sin. You’ve been delivered from the fear of death. You are no longer captured by a broad cultural narrative that says that you are merely an animal who has evolved over millions of years and there’s no creator. You’ve been rescued from that worldview to a Christian worldview that says you have a God who loves you and cares for you and will provide for you. So all those elements, and that’s just kind of scratching the surface of Christian conversion, but if you consider just those basic elements and you’re saying none of that has impact on depression, I would beg to differ. I think conversion has a tremendous impact and that’s not all we would have to say about it. There are things we still have to say, but nevertheless, I think just the nature of conversion itself would refute what that pastor said.
Cliff: Absolutely. The list you just delineated, those are exciting, supernatural, amazing truths. I mean, I’m getting goosebumps as you just give that little laundry list of here are the blessings and changes that happen in your life when you get saved, let alone you didn’t even mention, in addition to that, those amazing truths is your future is secure in Christ, and your past is taken care of. And at root of anxiety and depression and fear is fear of the future and regret about the past. And when you become a Christian, God’s taking care of all of it. Your past, all your sins are forgiven. Your future is secure in Christ. And so you and I both know we would totally disagree with this and have the exact opposite point of view that becoming a Christian has a tremendous impact on how you can deal with depression as a believer, a child of God born again. And really this comes down to a lot of this when we’re talking about depression is the sufficiency of scripture, wouldn’t you agree?
Derek: Absolutely. That is what it’s about, the sufficiency of scripture. That is a historic Reformation truth that we believe that the scripture is sufficient for all that truly ails us. And these issues of depression, like you just mentioned, they stem from theological and spiritual roots. And so scripture speaks to those things. And so scripture speaks sufficiently to those things, and we have all the resources that we need to rightly address this problem.
Cliff: Yeah, and that title, you and I are frequently coming back to the sufficiency of scripture. I think about it in everything we talk about. In just about every episode. Because that’s actually the application of the doctrine of the sufficiency of scripture. We have everything we need in this life to live a life pleasing and fulfilled and content before God, including struggles like depression. Well, when I preached this series, there was a little pushback or some questions from some Christian folks, and maybe you can comment on this too. Because in the series I did say that Jesus dealt with depression. As a matter of fact, I think I even said Jesus had experienced depression. And I got severe pushback on that from a few folks saying, oh, Jesus never got depressed. And what do you think was at root of why they were saying that? This is Christians.
Derek: Yeah, I think probably one of the concerns that they had, they maybe thought that depression was sinful, inherently sinful. That if you’re depressed, that’s sinful, and therefore Jesus never sinned, therefore Jesus was never depressed. But I think that’s a wrong understanding.
Cliff: I didn’t even tell you that, and that is exactly what they told me. So we discussed it, hashed it out. I’m like, why are you saying this? And I finally got it from them, and they were saying that Jesus never sinned. That was their answer. And they just, so therefore all depression is sinful. And I think that’s common among a lot of Christians who may think that way. There are other Christians I’ve counseled who think that depression is never sinful. And that’s also wrong. I think there are forms and manifestations of depression that can be sinful, some that are not. Some depression actually is just normal from being a human. And another truth that I brought up in that series was that to correct our thinking is, I don’t think all depression is necessarily bad. God made us emotional human beings. And there are times where we just need to go through the depression or the grief or the sorrow or the anxiety and not look for some artificial stimulant or crutch to smother it out.
Derek: That’s a really good point. We live in a fallen world.
Cliff: Yep. That’s reality. And we are emotional. God’s emotional in the Bible. Even the Father is emotional. And Jesus himself, Isaiah 53 verse 3, characterizes Jesus the Messiah as, quote, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. So there it is explicitly. Jesus dealt with depression in his life. He never sinned.
Derek: That’s right. So what would be a parting word to just whet people’s appetite for this new series we’re about to embark on?
Cliff: Yeah, I’d encourage them to listen to it if they can. And if anybody, particularly a believer, the series is primarily for believers who may struggle with depression and to listen to the series and with their Bible open, knowing that Christ is there as the man of sorrows and he is the great high priest and he can sympathize with every weakness ailment that we ever struggle with. And he’s there to be our advocate in our comfort. And he has a solution. And he offers that to us. So we do have sufficiency in Christ, in the scripture, in salvation, in the Holy Spirit, in prayer, in the church community. The sum of sufficiencies the Father does–not to minimize and say that depression is not a real issue or problem, or that there aren’t other related issues that can be medical–play into it.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: Because that is true. And I actually address all of that, hopefully in a balanced manner.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: That does justice to scripture.
Derek: Amen. Well, what a great place to end on the sufficiency of Christ, the sufficiency of scripture. And so we’ll wrap up today. Thank you very much for joining us on With All Wisdom. Again, we want to point you to WithAllWisdom.org. We have many articles related even to this issue that would be helpful to you and we look forward to seeing you again next time.
