What is the gift of prophecy? Should Christians seek that gift today? Does God still raise up prophets in the church? Is New Testament prophecy different than Old Testament prophecy? In this two-part podcast, pastors Derek Brown and Cliff McManis address these important questions and more as they discuss the century-long disagreement between cessationists and continuationists.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to With All Wisdom. My name is Derek Brown and I’m here today with Cliff McManis. We are both elders and pastors here at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California. We’re both professors at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California, and today we want to talk about the gift of prophecy. But before we get to our topic, I want to draw your attention to WithAllWisdom.org, where you’ll find a large and growing collection of resources that will help you grow in your walk with Jesus Christ. In fact, our latest book has just been released with With All Wisdom publications, and that’s The Parable of Sports by J.R. Cuevas. That’s actually a collection of articles that J.R. had written for With All Wisdom that we had posted online over the last year or so, and we compiled all those into a book. It’s The Parable of Sports. J.R. is just talking about how sports really do relate to many facets of the Christian life, and not only metaphorically, but also in training and discipleship, and how sports can be used profitably for the Christian, for the Christian family. So you want to check out that book. It’s very good. And now on to our topic. Among evangelicals, there’s a debate between cessationists. So we’ll just get some terms out here in case you’re not familiar with this debate. It’s an important one. But there’s a debate between cessationists and continuationists over the gift of prophecy. Simply put, cessationists believe that the gift of prophecy passed away sometime in the post-apostolic era because, among other reasons, there was no longer a need for the gift once the whole canon of Scripture was completed. Continuationists argue that the spiritual gift of prophecy is still available to the Church, and those with the gift should utilize it for the edification of the body of Christ. While it may appear that the disagreement is only over the continuation of a particular spiritual gift, there’s a more fundamental difference between cessationists and continuationists on how to define prophecy, particularly New Testament prophecy. Both groups agree that Old Testament prophecy is direct, infallible revelation from God that comes to God’s people through the prophet. Cessationists believe that this same definition should apply to New Testament prophecy. Continuationists argue that the New Testament gift of prophecy is different than the Old Testament gift. And one continuationist, he’s a theologian, he’s has an excellent reputation for being a theologian, his name is Wayne Grudem. He is a continuationist, and this is how he defines New Testament prophecy. He says, quote, an examination of the New Testament teaching on this gift will show that it should not be defined as, quote, declaring the future or, quote, proclaiming a word from the Lord, but rather as telling something that the Lord is spontaneously brought to mind. So that’s his definition. Therefore, while spiritually profitable New Testament prophecy, according to another continuationist, his name is Sam Storms, does, quote, does not carry intrinsic divine authority the way the Old Testament prophecy does. And then furthermore, this kind of prophecy, continuationists argue, is still alive and well within the church today, and its exercise should be encouraged for the edification of God’s people. And so in this podcast, we want to talk about those definitions, we want to talk about prophecy, we want to ask whether it’s right to define things the way that Grudem and Sam Storms and other continuationists have, and we want to talk about the difference between these definitions and the change that this is wrought in the church, and whether or not we should follow this line of argument. So I just want to hand it over to you, Cliff, and see what you have to say.
Cliff: Yeah, thanks, Derek, for that helpful intro into this ongoing discussion, debate, intramural controversy within the church, within the evangelical camp today. As you just mentioned, those two well-known, highly respected evangelicals, Sam Storms, the pastor, theologian, and then Wayne Grudem. And just cutting to the chase, we’re really wanting you to answer the question, what is prophecy? What is the proper definition of prophecy? And it is debated in the church today. And I just think about in the New Testament, there were issues of controversy and debate within the church, but never was there a debate over what prophecy was. Everybody had a universal understanding of it. And that same thing is also true mostly through the history of the church, that the church collectively, or what was recognized the church, not counting the Roman Catholic Church, but Bible believing Christians never really disputed or debated over the definition of prophecy. It was always just understood. So that is a new issue, and we’ll talk about that in a little bit, of how that’s as new and recent as 1978. But in terms of just cutting to the chase on what is the definition of prophecy, I’m just going to quote from this. Here’s a standard Bible dictionary. I can pull off any one off the shelf. And they all pretty much say the same thing when it comes to defining prophecy. So I’ll just read this one, because it’s good. It’s standard. This is historic. Very simple. Prophecy. In Scripture, prophecy is direct communication from God’s Spirit. Direct communication from God. Really good definition.
Then he goes on and also says that prophecy declares God’s mind. So when God gives prophecy, he’s telling us what he thinks. And he’s the direct source. Another way of defining prophecy simply is just by saying prophecy is direct revelation. Every time it’s given, it is new revelation. Or fresh revelation, what I mean by new revelation. It’s not always a new truth, but it is newly given. Or even a simpler definition, but it’s synonym with all of those. What is prophecy? Prophecy is God speaking. God speaking. And we know from the Bible, God speaks in many different ways. But this definition that is from Genesis to Revelation, prophecy is God speaking. The Old Testament formula for that was, thus saith the Lord. And that occurs literally hundreds, if not thousands of times. All the prophets, thus saith the Lord. And then they would, whether it was Moses or Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all the prophets, they’d say, thus saith the Lord. This is what God says. And then they would give direct revelation, the very thoughts of God. That definition and practice is carried over into the New Testament. We meet John the Baptist, who basically has a ministry of saying, thus saith the Lord. And he was a prophet. Jesus said he was a prophet in Matthew 11. So he was definitely a mouthpiece for God. He spoke direct revelation. He used those kinds of words, thus saith the Lord, thus says the Holy Spirit. So there’s continuity from the Old Testament to the New Testament in John the Baptist of what the understanding of prophecy was. All the Jews knew that in John the Baptist day. There was no question about it or debate. Oh, is a new kind of prophecy being introduced now that we’re in the New Covenant era with the Messiah? No. And then after the ministry of John the Baptist, he introduces Jesus. And Jesus was a prophet. He was the greatest prophet. He’s called a prophet in the New Testament with the capital P. And Jesus himself would say, thus saith the Lord. Meaning he was speaking prophecy, direct, new, spontaneous revelation from God in heaven. So Jesus also is in continuity with the Old Testament prophets.
So the definition even with the ministry of Jesus of what prophecy did not change. And then he calls his apostles, he commissions them with the gift of prophecy to speak direct revelation from God. And they had their apostolic ministry. And they also said, thus saith the Lord, and gave direct revelation. They were Jews. And again, the continuity of what prophecy is is preserved from the Old Testament even to the apostles who established the foundation of the church and introduced through the Holy Spirit the New Covenant ministry. And then the apostle Paul comes as an apostle, the same thing. He’s also a prophet. And he says, thus saith the Lord. And then God gave prophets to the New Testament in addition to the apostles. And they were gifted this same ability to declare direct revelation from God. So the one in New Testament prophets spoke in the name of God. And he was doing it with integrity. He was speaking literally for God. And so that definition of prophecy from Old Testament to New Testament is preserved 100% with continuity. So the definition of it doesn’t change. An example would be in the Gospel, or Luke’s writing in the book of Acts, where he mentions Agabus a couple of times. And in chapter 21, near the end of Paul’s ministry, Agabus is introduced. And he receives a prophecy from God. And literally Agabus is called a prophet in that passage, Acts 21. And then Agabus says, this is what the Holy Spirit says. That’s literally what it says. This is what the Holy Spirit says. Then he gives a prophecy. And then now, continuationists, or those who don’t believe that prophecy ceased with the New Testament, or continuationists, those who have redefined prophecy today, are accusing Agabus of being wrong and making mistakes.
Derek: He didn’t get the details right.
Cliff: Yep. So he was wrong. He was kind of right, but he was wrong. And as far as the research I’ve done, for the first time in the history of the Church, in mainstream Christianity, are well-known, authoritative Bible teachers accusing Agabus of being wrong. And the first time I heard that, I was startled and baffled. And I actually didn’t know how to answer that. I was like, what? You’ve got to be kidding. Really? Yeah. When he literally says, this is what the Holy Spirit says.
Derek: Which is equivalent to, thus says the Lord.
Cliff: Exactly.
Derek: And Agabus is introduced in Acts chapter 11 as a prophet, and as a prophet who accurately predicted a famine.
Cliff: Yes.
Derek: And so his track record is already set as a prophet who prophesies accurately, which is what you would expect because that’s what prophets do, starting in the Old Testament all the way through. Like you’ve just explained, the word prophet, prophecy, those words, they are connected to direct and fallible revelation. From the very beginning, when God began to reveal himself through the work of prophecy, that’s what it has meant. And so when you come to Agabus in Acts 11, and then again in 21, which you should be expecting, is that he would accurately prophesy and say whatever he has to say is going to be accurate and true and from the Lord.
Cliff: Yes. So I got a couple of follow-up questions for you, Derek. So we conclude that the traditional, acceptable biblical definition of prophecy is that it’s God speaking, and it is direct revelation, the very mind of God. And as always, you and I, we’re not addressing these issues from just a theological, theoretical, academic point of view, because first and foremost, I mean, we do teach at a seminary, but first and foremost, full time for you and I, is we are primarily shepherds in the local church. We are elders, we’re pastors, and we receive questions and concerns from our sheep all the time. And that’s our priority. And we have to give them answers. We have to help them from God’s word. And so this is an issue that our people bring to us, asking questions. What is prophecy? Or I saw this person on television saying that they were hearing from God, they had a vision, they had a dream. And so literally in the last week, I have had two people tell me the following. One was just a couple of days ago telling me that they, God speaks to them, even in a dream, and even one time audibly, God spoke audibly to this fellow Christian. So we had a discussion about that, and I just was asking basic questions. What did God say? Was this authoritative? Was this equivalent with the Bible? What did God’s voice sound like? Does he have a baritone voice? And the reason, and I’m kind of serious there, because in the 30 plus years I’ve been a Christian, I’ve never heard God speak audibly, because I believe that God speaks through his word and through the Holy Spirit. But this person is a Christian, so we had a discussion about that. That was just a couple days ago. And then less than a week ago, another brother told me that he speaks in tongues as a private prayer language every day, which also has to do, and that intersects with prophecy, because I think the New Testament gift of speaking in tongues is a form of prophecy when it is interpreted properly, because it is revealing direct revelation from God. So this brother was, in my opinion, redefining what speaking in tongues was and turned it into a prayer language, which is common in the Charismatic world. Full disclosure, I was saved as a Charismatic. As a young Christian, I went to Charismatic churches, the vineyard. So I had the background to understand all that theology, and over time I came out of that movement. But anyway, getting back to the definition of prophecy, why don’t you share a couple of things more related to the issues we need to concentrate on and think through with discernment?
Derek: So the question of whether or not, or how to define prophecy is important. You said, and you mentioned pastorally, precisely because what we’re talking about is, and the claim that’s being made is, at least from a continuationist side, if someone’s prophesying, then that is, or if they’re claiming to prophesy, then we take that as direct revelation. And the confusion, I think, that happens, that has been occurring, is when a continuationist claims that so-and-so has prophesied, the first thought that a lot of people have who are familiar with Scripture and what you are brought to understand from the Old Testament through into the New Testament, is that that would mean that such-and-such person is giving direct revelation from God. And that definition has been shaped in such a way, so now that it doesn’t necessarily mean that, it means what Wayne Grudemann said, it means something that God is spontaneously bringing to mind. I didn’t mention something that Sam Storms has also said. He says that no one prophesies today with 100% accuracy. Prophecy doesn’t come with inherent divine authority, and so that’s confusing.
Cliff: Let me ask you, I haven’t heard that quote before from Sam Storms.
Derek: I just pulled it up.
Cliff: I’ve interacted with him a lot.
Derek: January 25th, 2020.
Cliff: Say that again.
Derek: No one, quote, no one prophesies with 100% accuracy.
Cliff: Okay, and that would even be true of a true prophet, right?
Derek: Well, I don’t know. I think you’re speaking specifically to today, because he’s referencing…
Cliff: Well, I mean today, because I talked to him about that, and he agrees that you can have the true gift of prophecy or receive a legitimate prophet, but sometimes you get it right and sometimes you get it wrong. So, in essence, he’s saying you can be a true prophet and make mistakes sometimes.
Derek: Exactly. And so, the way that Sam Storms has defined prophecy or how it works is that you have multiple elements. You have the direct revelation from God. That’s the first element. Then you have the reception of it by the prophet. He’s receiving it. And then the third element is that he interprets that revelation that he got. And then the fourth element is that he now applies it. And anywhere from step two to four, he can mess up because he’s human. And so, therefore, you can allow for prophets, today’s prophets, to be wrong sometimes. And so, that’s confusing because, like, if the definition that we argue for, which we believe is the correct biblical definition, which is clear throughout Old and New Testament, that that’s confusing because Scripture only has you anticipate that a prophet would be always correct. In fact, that is one of the criteria in the Old Testament, that you have to be right 100% of the time. Why? Well, because you’re speaking God’s word. And so, that’s a confusing element. So, then what happens is you have these so-called prophets who are speaking. So, you had experience being saved within a charismatic setting. I recently had an experience of a man who I sat down with. He wanted to get together. We met each other on LinkedIn. Seemed like a neat kind of Christian partnership. We sat down on a Starbucks. And at the end of the conversation, he says, I have a dream for you. I had a dream. And God told me this about you. And he described the dream. And I kept pressing on him and asking him, is this? So, God told you this? Because my sense is that if this is from God, then it is authoritative, and I need to obey whatever this might be. And the more I pressed him on that, the less comfortable he got with saying that it was directly from the Lord, because he was starting to see how weighty that really is. And so, when you have prophets today claiming such things, it confuses people. They are assuming that what you’re saying is directly from the Lord. And if it is, then it needs to be obeyed. And if it’s not, then it doesn’t need to be obeyed. And so, there’s a lot of confusion at that point, particularly with the way this gift is defined by the continuationist.
Cliff: Yeah. So, you alluded to Wayne Grudem. You referenced Sam Storms. There are two influential guys who represent this view in evangelical Christianity today. And I think the crux of the issue is they’re saying that New Testament prophecy is different than what Old Testament prophecy was. And one of the main differences is that you can have legitimate New Testament prophecy, and it can be in error. It can be fallible. It can be kind of quasi-God-speaking and kind of not. So, you have this dichotomy of the revelation of God that I think is illegitimate. When bottom line, prophecy is God-speaking. And God doesn’t make mistakes. He never makes errors. And I think we need to preserve and highlight in the proper order what is the correct definition of prophecy. And it starts with, prophecy is direct revelation from God. The thoughts of God, it’s the mind of God, it’s the truth of God that he directly gives to the human agent. And you can’t compromise on that.
Derek: There are just two elements of real genuine prophecy. It’s God giving the revelation and the prophet speaking it accurately, exactly how he received it. There aren’t four. And so, that’s an important point to make. Like you just said, it’s direct revelation from God. So, you don’t have four elements where two to four, the prophet can mess it up. Rather, you have him receiving it and giving it just as he received it. It’s interesting, the way Sam Storms breaks up the four elements of prophecy, where you have the revelation and then you have the reception, the interpretation, and the application. I read that and I think, well, that’s teaching, right? Because we have that direct revelation in Scripture. We receive it, we interpret it, and we apply it. In the long steps two to four, that’s true. I can mess it up. But that’s not what a prophet does. A prophet receives the direct revelation and accurately gives it to God’s people.
Cliff: Yes. And one of their arguments from 1 Corinthians 14 is, well, we know that New Testament prophecy is different because in 1 Corinthians 14, it had to be tested to validate whether it’s true or not. I’m thinking, no, that’s not novel or new. That was true in Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18.
Derek: Yeah, that’s the point.
Cliff: God told Moses, if anybody stands up and says, thus saith the Lord, you listen carefully to what he says. If that thing comes true, that was of God. That was a true prophecy. If that doesn’t come to pass, that man did not speak on behalf of God and off with his head. I mean, they would literally stone the guy to death, or they were supposed to. So the definition hasn’t changed just by virtue of how it’s tested. That’s always been true.
Derek: That’s an excellent point.
Cliff: So going back to this definition, so when did this change? You made an excellent point to me that I didn’t even think about. We just did a three-day class on the sign gifts and spiritual gifts, and we even got to talk to Sam Storms there. Then we saw Wayne Grudem just a couple of weeks ago. I got to chat with him a little bit. So that was good. One of the things you came away with after teaching that class for three days was how the non-cessationists or the continuationists, in essence, have redefined key terms.
Derek: They have, yeah.
Cliff: Multiple key terms. Yeah, and you were pointing those out, and I was like, yeah, that’s true. They’ve redefined prophecy. What were some of those others that they have redefined, given a new definition?
Derek: Well, I mentioned three, and then you gave me a slip of paper, see if I can find it over here, where you gave me a few more. As I was taking our guys through this material, I noted that they have redefined prophecy, they have redefined the gift of tongues, and they’ve redefined edification, what it means to be edified. And let’s see if I can, I’m not guaranteeing anything here. Oh, here it is. And then you handed me a little slip of paper this Sunday, because I think it was just fresh on your mind. You said they’ve also redefined sufficiency, spirit baptism, and in some cases, apostleship. And so, lots of redefining of terms, which is, I think, just that alone is an important observation to make.
Cliff: Yeah, absolutely. So, in preparation of part two of this, I want to hunker down on when those key terms were redefined, who redefined them, what the new definitions were that have been given, how they’ve been mainstreamed, so that now they’re commonplace, these new definitions. The new generation of Christians, they don’t realize that these basic terms of Christianity have been redefined, because if they were born and raised and saved, like when I was growing up, this wasn’t an issue. Everybody, for the most part, in the evangelical church, had a common understanding of what prophecy was. So, this is all rather new or novel, and we need to get that out there so that people have an awareness and understanding of that. A reformation, if you will, on these basic definitions of Christianity and the spiritual gifts.
Derek: Yeah, and that’s an excellent point. And so, we will look forward to doing that in part two, and we just want to thank you for joining us for this part one on our discussion of prophecy and just discussing issues related to spiritual gifts and the differences among cessationists and continuationists within evangelicalism. Again, we want to point your attention to WithAllWisdom.org, where you’ll find a large and growing collection of resources talking about things like these that will help you with discernment, thinking clearly about what the Bible teaches, and helping you grow thereby in your walk with the Lord Jesus. Until next time, keep seeking the Lord in his word, and we’ll see you soon.
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