In this third episode of their three-part series on Mormonism, pastors Derek and Cliff discuss how Christians can effectively share the gospel with Mormons.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to With All Wisdom, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown and I am here today with Cliff McManis, and we are both pastors and elders at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California, and professors at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And today we are talking about how to witness to or how to evangelize Mormons. This is part three in our series on Mormonism. And before we get to that topic, though, I want to draw your attention to withallwisdom.org, where you will find a large and growing collection of resources on various theological, cultural, and practical topics that are all rooted in God’s Word and aim to help you make genuine progress in your walk with the Lord. And one article I want to point your attention to is entitled, “Is Mormonism Just Another Christian Denomination?” That’s an article that we hosted posted there a little while ago that will go through the basic points of Mormonism and how to respond, and it has some helpful resources at the end. So just check out that article. Let’s move on today to our topic. And today’s topic is now taking what we’ve just learned in episodes 39 and 40 and applying it now to evangelizing Mormons.
Because we love Mormons. They’re people made in the image of God. We discussed Mormon theology. We want to make a distinction between Mormon theology and Mormons themselves. The theology is horrible. Let’s be honest. It’s bad. It’s unbiblical, it’s unsound. It’s dangerous. It is the kind of thing that, if believed, will actually damn you, because you will not be able to believe in the Lord Jesus for salvation. In fact, something we will even mention today is Christians and Mormons believe very different things about Jesus. And that’s one of the topics that we want to bring up as we’re engaging Mormons in evangelism. But we want to make it clear that we love Mormons and we want them to be saved. But in order for them to be saved, we have to be very clear about what the truth is, and very clear about what Mormon theology teaches and what the Bible teaches. And so we want to talk about that today. And so, Cliff, start it off with talking about, what has been your experience as you’ve engaged Mormons in evangelism? What are some just kind of initial points that you would bring up in terms of evangelizing or witnessing to Mormons?
Cliff: I have a long history of witnessing to Mormons, starting in the 1980s. I actually used to go to and belong to Mormon ministry, Christian Mormon ministries, Saints Alive in Christ and Mormons for Jesus. I affiliated with them. I went to their conferences and learned about Mormonism from them. They did a lot of witnessing to Mormons, defense of the faith apologetics, and they had a certain methodology in their approach to evangelism and witnessing to Mormons and defending the faith. And I would say that I have morphed in my methodology and philosophy of witnessing to Mormons over the decades, actually. So I look back, in hindsight, and think, there are some things that I definitely would have changed that needed to change. And so I have some definitive do’s and don’ts of witnessing to Mormons. So on the one hand, I would say, well, how do you witness to a Mormon? Well, the same way you witness to anybody who’s not a Christian.
Derek: Yeah, that’s a good word.
Cliff: And then on the other hand, there are some unique things about the Mormon faith that make it challenging. And if you just knew some things about their faith, you might have more success. You might be more discerning, or you won’t be led astray. So, the do’s and don’ts. And number one is, Mormonism isn’t different than any other false religion. I mean, the Bible is clear. There are only two categories of people. There’s those who are children of God—sons of God. And then there are those who are not. They’re the sons of the devil. Jesus said that in John chapter eight—you are the sons of your father, the devil. And John is clear about that in 1 John. So you’re either a child of light or a child of darkness. So, always understanding that category, that there’s Christians and there’s unbelievers, and that’s all there is to it. Lightness and darkness. So in that respect, Mormons aren’t worse than anybody else. They’re not worse and more evil than Hindus or agnostics or an unsaved Baptist.
Derek: Good point, good point.
Cliff: So they need the gospel just like anybody else. So unfortunately, early on in some of those affiliations I had with some of those ex-Mormon, Christian organizations, they were sometimes overly aggressive or didn’t have the right approach. And when I watched them witness to Mormons, to me, sometimes it was like, they don’t look like they’re really being loving. It’s like they’re on the attack. So we’ve got to guard against that. Even though we acknowledge that the theology of Mormonism is horrible; it is horrific. It’s damning, actually. Like any false teaching or ideology. We have to have great disdain for the perversion of truth, but at the same time, these are people, like you said, made in the image of God. And so, like Jesus, who had compassion on the rich young ruler who wasn’t saved. As a matter of fact, I think Mark 5 says that when the guy walked away and rejected Jesus, it said that Jesus loved him. Jesus was sad. Yeah, he rejected the gospel. And that was Jesus’ loving heart towards the sinner. We don’t know if that guy ever got saved, but Jesus loved him after witnessing to him. So that would be one big change or recalibration that I would do that I’ve learned over 40 years. When you’re talking to a Mormon, treat them like someone made in the image of God, a candidate for the gospel, a candidate even for salvation. Even if your conversation doesn’t go as well as you want it to. And the goal is to get that gospel out. The gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, the difference in witnessing to a Mormon—because you’ve got to acknowledge the differences. I was going to ask you, Derek, a spontaneous question. And I know you love these.
Derek: Sometimes, sometimes.
Cliff: What is the most effective counterfeit $100 bill?
Derek: The most effective?
Cliff: Counterfeit $100 bill.
Derek: One that looks the closest to the original?
Cliff: I knew you’d answer that successfully. And I think that’s why Mormonism is so difficult, right? Because of all the religions I can think of, Mormonism looks like, sounds like, talks like, smells like biblical Christianity more than any other religion I can think of.
Derek: Exactly.
Cliff: So that is highly deceptive. They use the same vocabulary. I mean, you could be sitting here listening to a Mormon and they’re going to say, I love Jesus. He’s my Savior. He died on the cross. He rose from the dead. I’m born again. I mean, I know Mormons who use that kind of terminology. I believe in the Bible. We love the Bible. Even that book we were talking about, How Wide the Divide, the Mormon and evangelical are saying these kind of things together in unison. We agree that Scripture is inspired. We agree that Jesus is deity. They’re saying that. So the problem is that just about every key word that a Mormon uses is nuanced with a different meaning to it, right? So when they say that God is eternal, they don’t mean eternal like we mean eternal, right? When they say, I believe in Jesus, they’re not talking about the same Jesus. It’s a completely counterfeit Jesus. We believe in Scripture. They don’t mean the same thing by Scripture. So that is the challenge of Mormonism. That’s why you’ve got to kind of scratch beneath the surface and get to the meaning of their vocabulary so we understand what they’re truly saying, right? Otherwise, you’re going to be spinning in circles when you’re talking to a Mormon, or you’re going to think that they agree with you, right? And you don’t need to witness to them. As a matter of fact, they’re a brother or sister in Christ!
Derek: Exactly. And I think what’s really crucial, in fact, one of the things that I have…so I haven’t been witnessing to Mormons as long as you have. I would say mine started around when I became a Christian about 20 plus years ago. But now as my approach to evangelizing Mormons has developed, one of the things that I try to do is make it very clear, because there’s multiple things you could talk about. I try to make it clear that we are believing in a different Jesus, and that there’s a very clear distinction between the Jesus of Christianity and the Jesus of Mormonism. I want that to be sharp and clear, because they’ve been told that they are Christians. They have been told that we believe relatively the same things. And it’s a disservice to these Mormons because they need to see that, in fact, no, Christianity is very different from what they’ve been taught. And because they’re using the same words, but loaded with different meanings, of course, but it does appear on a superficial level to be the same. And so that’s one of the things that I try to do, is graciously help them see that we believe in a different Jesus. And I found that to be effective, and actually, in some cases, eye-opening. It doesn’t seem as though they really even had been able to see that or understand that up to that point. It’s been remarkable to see that in some cases, they start to see for the first time. Oh, okay. There is a difference here.
Cliff: But yeah, that’s a great point, actually. That would be my advice to anybody on witnessing to Mormons is, start with Jesus Christ. The differences between the two religions. And actually camp out on Jesus. You can’t lose. That’s a good point because that’s the heart of the gospel. First Corinthians 15:1-3. It’s literally verse three. Paul said, this is the gospel: that Christ died for our sins. So the gospel begins with Christ and who he is. So you’ve got to start there, and then it’s what he did. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. He rose again in accordance with the Scripture. So the gospel is all about Jesus Christ. If you’re trying to so-called witness to a Mormon and you’re not focused on Jesus, you’re missing the gospel. You’ve blown your opportunity. And that’s what I did. And that’s what I saw early on in the 80s, where I went to these conferences. And literally, I’m just watching this so-called Christian apologist witness to Mormons for about an hour and 15 minutes, talking to some other very well-educated Mormons. He’s spending all his time talking about Joseph Smith and his 40 wives and polygamy and the errors in the Book of Mormon and the contradictions in the Book of Mormon. And in that hour and 50 minutes, he’s never really talking about Jesus Christ and the gospel and the nature of God. So he’s missing it. So, was Joseph Smith a scoundrel? Yeah. And was he sinful? Yeah. But every other human being in the Bible is sinful, and you could point out all kinds of foibles. And David and Paul and Moses the murderer and everything else. That’s not the gospel. That’s not good news.
Derek: And the reality is that if you are in that religion, if you’re in Mormonism and you believe that it’s true, you’re going to try to defend against those attacks against your founder and against your Scripture and so on, because you are trying to justify your own sin and keep yourself protected from God’s judgment and protect yourself from the guilt of sin. What you need is the gospel, so that you will no longer be trying to defend yourself and trying to justify yourself by defending your religion. Really showing them the issues that are wrong with Joseph Smith and the founding of Mormonism and the problem with their scriptures and so on—none of these things can save, right? They can’t regenerate the heart. And they’re important to point these out, of course, in the right place at the right time. But only knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gospel is what can save. And so, like you said, you are spinning your wheels, and you need to recognize that Mormons, just like any unbeliever, will justify their religion in order to protect themselves from God’s judgment and the guilt that they feel over their sin. What they need is relief from that through the gospel.
Cliff: Yep, I am not ashamed of the gospel, right? For it is the power of God unto salvation. So like you said, only the gospel of Jesus Christ can save a sinner and remove the deception of sin. And even the gospel is the only thing that can remove satanic deception that has blinded their minds, according to 2 Corinthians. But one thing I want to say is, I talked about how there’s this change in the culture of evangelicalism towards Mormonism today, as opposed to the 60s and 70s. One of the main changes that I’ve seen and I’m aware of that’s pretty dominant in the evangelical world, and it’s at the highest levels, is that we’re told when we talk to Mormons, we’re supposed to have a dialogue with them. Sure, we’re supposed to be civil. And then we’re supposed to be involved in a dialogue, as opposed to, I think what the Bible says is not a dialogue. We’re supposed to witness, but we’re told we’re not supposed to do that. We’re not supposed to proselytize them or try to win them over. We’re supposed to be civil and have a dialogue. We need to be willing to listen to them and better understand. And then it just kind of stops there. And I’ve seen that trend growing more and more.
But the mandate of Scripture is clear. We’re not called to just be in a dialogue. We’re called to witness to them. Proclaim the good news. We’re proclaimers. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing with authority. We are declaring. We are exhorting. We are evangelizing the truth. We have the only saving message. And it needs to be sung out at the top of our lungs from the rooftops. So that approach needs to be…that’s the rock bed of the Great Commission and the mandate of the church and the mandate of every Christian. We need to evangelize, regardless of your faith or who you are as an unbeliever. Being civil, of course, and we talk with graciousness and with the heart of the love of Christ, but we still are forthright and honest. We have to expose the deception and the lies, even if it makes them upset. We need to speak the truth and speak the truth in love. And that’s always a challenge. We need to be praying before and after and during while we’re talking to these unsaved folks. But just going back to the historic approach from the Bible, it’s the only way to do it.
Derek: Yeah, the person and work of Jesus. One of the things that will stand out as you witness to a Mormon and keep on the topic of Jesus is that, one of the things you’ll have to do—because again, we’re using same vocabulary but different meanings of those words—you want to be careful to define who Jesus is from Scripture. He is the eternal creator God, the son, who has created all things. He had no beginning. You might think, is that what Mormons believe? No, that’s not at all what they believe. Jesus, the Son of God, did have a beginning. In fact, they believe that he is the spirit brother of Lucifer, Satan, and that he is the same ontology of that spirit.
Cliff: Say what?
Derek: Yes.
Cliff: So let me be the Mormon here. In light of what you’re saying, Derek. So I’m a Mormon, and I believe in Jesus. And you believe in Jesus. We both believe in Jesus. Well, isn’t that wonderful?
Derek: Well, if we are using the same word, Jesus. But I think we define Jesus differently. I define him as the eternal Son of God, God the Son, the creator, who has never had a beginning and will never have an end. And you believe that Mormonism teaches that Jesus is actually the spirit brother of Lucifer, of Satan. When you play it all out, he’s actually a created being.
Cliff: And let me go back to your statement that’s so important, that Jesus is eternal, like in Hebrews. Right? Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever. He’s eternal, and we saw guys like Steven Robinson, the Mormon, who will actually say that God is eternal, but he uses that word in a different way. So just drilling down a little bit on this word eternal. By eternal, you mean Jesus has always existed and also he’s uncreated. Right? And there was a time from a Mormon point of view, there’s actually a time where Jesus didn’t exist.
Derek: Correct.
Cliff: Yeah, that’s a part of their theology. So they can’t borrow our terms and say that Jesus is eternal, which they try to do. So, in defining who Jesus is, we have to define the terms we’re using when we’re defining who Jesus is.
Derek: Exactly.
Cliff: Yeah, but you’re right. We’ve got to hunker down and make it categorically clear that we do not believe in the same Jesus. And I’m thinking, Jesus warned us there would be other Christs—false Christs. John warns us of that in 1 John. Paul warns us of that in 2 Corinthians. Another Christ, a pseudo-Christ, a false Jesus. And that is exactly what Mormonism believes.
Derek: Yeah. And it would be great to have them repent and believe that at moment. That no longer is really the goal. Now, the goal is for them to, whatever happens, for them to see a clear distinction between what they believe about Jesus and what Scripture teaches about Jesus, so that when they walk away, at the very least, they will see that these are two different religions. These are two different ways of viewing Jesus. Now, I make that my goal. Would I love to see them turn to Christ at that moment? Absolutely. But now it’s a matter of explaining the gospel to them, keeping it centered on Jesus. And then also, why don’t we talk about this? Because I’m sure you’ll have something to add about this, because Mormons will also say that they’re saved by grace. I’ve heard them say that before, and that was surprising to me early on. How? One of the distinctives of Christianity is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, not according to our works. And they’ll say they’re saved by grace. So let’s talk about how does someone appropriate this gospel, this free gift of forgiveness? And we would say that it is by faith alone, by God’s grace, so that our works are none of it. We are not saved by our works in any way, shape, or form. We stand righteous before God on the basis of what Christ has done and who he is alone, and we’re saved by believing in him. Now Mormons would say we’re saved by grace, too. But would they define grace the same way?
Cliff: Yeah, they’ll use the word grace. They’ll use it in a different way. This is very important as well because this is part of the gospel. The biblical gospel is that we are not saved by any human works whatsoever. There’s nothing we do that contributes to salvation at all. We can’t earn favor with God. There’s only one work that earns the favor of God, and that is the work of Jesus Christ and his death on the cross and his resurrection. It is the work of God and him alone. That is the only kind of work that saves us. Ephesians 2:8-9 talks about that. We’re saved by grace through faith apart from works, so that no man should boast. Then Mormons like to say no, we believe in grace, and it’s actually very similar to what Roman Catholics believe regarding grace. The Roman Catholic teaching is that you’re saved by grace plus works, right? And that’s really what Mormonism says. You’re saved by grace, plus works, and you do works, and those works help save you. But you couldn’t do those works apart from the grace of God. So they say that God is graciously involved every step of the way. But you have to do all the Mormon works, Mormon ordinances, and you’re getting help from God. So he’s graciously helping you do all those human works in order to get saved.
That’s adding to the gospel. But here’s the Book of Mormon. Second Nephi, chapter 25. This is supposedly one of their holy scriptures. Um, and I believe Joseph Smith actually stole this out of Ephesians chapter two, and he tweaked it and added his own words to it, where it says in second Nephi, chapter 25, verse 23: it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do. That strategic “after all that we can do.” That’s what Mormonism believes. There’s grace is involved, but it’s a God only helps those who help themselves kind of mentality. And so, yeah, grace is involved, but definitely human works are involved. And as a matter of fact, you can never know that you’re saved right now. You can never know that you’re saved in this life, and you can never do enough to get saved. And that’s up to God. As a matter of fact, after you die, people have to do works for you. Still, through baptism of the dead and those kinds of things to help get you on your way to being saved ultimately. So that is a complete compromise of the gospel of salvation by grace through faith. Apart from works—it’s the work of God in Jesus Christ alone.
Derek: Yeah. And it stems from a faulty view of Jesus because you need the biblical Jesus, the fully divine, fully human Jesus, in order to atone for our sins and save us by grace so that we are not saved by our works. So it’s all tied together and it is linked to your view of Jesus.
Cliff: Yeah. And, Derek, what you said. So when you’re witnessing to a Mormon, again, it’s real simple. You’re focusing on the gospel. You’re focusing on Jesus. And everything you said about Jesus is true. You need to focus on Jesus. Define the biblical Jesus and then the Mormon Jesus. I think you need to do that with God the Father, too. In light of John 17:3, where Jesus said, this is eternal life: that they may know the one true God. And his Son. And they have a distorted view of God the Father, as we’ve already seen. They believe that God the Father is a man. He used to be a man. He worked his way to godhood. He is not infinite. He was a created being. Therefore, he’s not sovereign. He’s not the eternal one. He’s not the one taught in the Bible. They have a counterfeit God the Father. Right? And Jesus said, the essence of eternal life is knowing God the Father for who he truly is—the ultimate sovereign, holy, infinite one.
Derek: So focusing on Jesus, focusing on God the Father, and focusing on the nature of the gospel and how you receive it, namely, defining what grace is and making it clear that it’s apart from works. Any works at all, even works that God may graciously enable us to do. Paul even says that in Titus 3 when he says, it’s not even by works of righteousness that he saved us. Right? One thing I want to touch on before we go, because one thing I found is, the more I get to know Mormon theology, the more I despise Mormon theology. And so I think what has happened in my own engagements with Mormons is I get upset about the theology and I kind of take it out on the Mormon. Can you talk a little bit about that—about how we can graciously approach them, while at the same time, being honest and truthful?
Cliff: Yeah, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. The way you feel regarding false teaching, false religion, and deception. Because in Acts chapter 17, Paul looked, as he was in Athens, he looked at the mountainside full of idols and said he was provoked in his spirit. In other words, he was angry at this satanic religion. How deceptive it is. It’s leading people astray. It’s damning souls. And he got angry about it. So that’s a righteous indignation. But then we just have to rein that in and use it strategically. I think in our apologetics and witnessing, we’ve got to do the positive apologetics, which is proclaiming the gospel. And we can do that graciously and have that conversation. We also have to do the negative apologetics. That’s exposing their wrong views. And I’m thinking of 2 Corinthians 10, where Paul says, in our apologetics, though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. Notice the word war. We are at war with false views, false ideologies, false religion. And the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh. They’re not human, but they are divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We’re at war. It’s spiritual warfare. No wonder you feel it in your soul when you get riled up.
And we have to take it seriously. This is supernatural warfare. And we are called by God to destroy fortresses. Not literal fortresses, but these are spiritual fortresses. These are ideologies, false philosophies, false theology. We need to rip it down. We’re supposed to shred it to pieces, eviscerate it, expose it through truth, and the way we wield truth and the way we articulate truth. And he goes on. As Christians, we are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God. So we are supposed to be destroying false theology, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. So this terminology is destructive. It’s iconoclastic war, destruction, ripping down. So we have to do that tactfully and graciously, but there’s definitely that negative apologetics that’s involved when we’re talking to a Mormon, where we have to expose that error for them and let them see this is destructive; this is damning. What you believe about Jesus Christ is very dangerous for you. Your eternal soul is at stake. And Joseph Smith was a false prophet. And you’re being misled by these lies. So at some point in the conversation, you have to probably talk that bluntly out of a heart of love.
Derek: Right. And let’s just be very clear, it is not mean to say those kinds of things, just like it wouldn’t be mean if you knew of a friend who had in his refrigerator bottles of soda that you knew were infected with a poison. And you’re being very clear to expose that, to expose the company that made it, to tell them to get that out of their refrigerator. That’s not mean.
Cliff: It’s loving. You’re trying to protect their soul.
Derek: That’s right. And so we need to be very clear, because in our contemporary society, it’s just judged to be mean the moment you start contradicting someone else’s religious belief. And in fact, it’s not. It’s actually very loving. So we want to do that out of a heart of love. We do love Mormons. We want to see them saved. That would be wonderful to see a kind of revival of sorts, where you have a large group of Mormons being saved out of the Mormon church and coming to embrace Jesus Christ. Well, we want to thank you for listening. We hope and pray that these three past episodes on Mormonism have been helpful to you. Again, we encourage you to check out withallwisdom.org, where you’ll find many other resources, including the one I mentioned at the beginning of today’s episode on Mormonism. And until next time, keep seeking the Lord in His word.
