In this two-part series, pastors Derek and Cliff discuss the topic of student debt forgiveness from a biblical perspective.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to the With All Wisdom Podcast, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. I’m here today with Cliff McManis. My name is Derek Brown. We are both pastors and elders at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California. And we both have the privilege of training pastors as professors of theology at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And today we’re on part two of applying a biblical worldview to student debt forgiveness. And we encourage you to go back and listen to episode 69 where we kick things off. And Cliff said a lot of important things about the topic itself. And now we’re going to start off with some quiz questions. So why don’t you get your pencil ready. You can test yourself here or just listen and answer the questions in your head or out loud in your car, however you want to do it. But we are about to jump back into part two of our discussion on applying a biblical worldview to student debt forgiveness or loan forgiveness. Cliff, why don’t you take it away?
Cliff: Yeah. So one of the points we were emphasizing in our last episode is, in order to properly apply a Christian worldview to any given topic, not only do we need all that the Bible has to say on that issue, we also need all the related information to the issue itself. And all that information needs to be accurate. We can be misled on a given issue from propaganda in the news or fake news on television or whatever, or on the internet. Then we’re not able to assess it properly. So that’s a problem.
Derek: And it’s interesting. It’s hard work to be discerning because of all this stuff you’re saying and all the information we got to gather—it’s hard work.
Cliff: It is hard work.
Derek: You can’t just do it passively and think you’re going to have a sharp, discerning mind and heart. This takes some serious effort.
Cliff: It does. So that was the case here with, well, what should a Christian think about Biden’s plan to forgive college loans? So then the Supreme Court finally decided to take it up and agree to listen to the case because what happened was Biden makes his proposal, and he puts it on the White House website. I’m going to forgive 20,000 and 10,000 per individual, up to 43 million Americans at the tune of $1.7 trillion that the taxpayers are going to have to pay for. Actually, he didn’t say that part. Let people know taxpayers are going to have to pay for this thing. So it’s not free. Then it was a few months later and there were lawsuits that were being filed, and one of the main lawsuits being filed was by senators and representatives in the US Congress. And so it was in February of 2023 where an amicus brief was filed by senators of the United States. Get this—42 Republican senators filed this brief, basically suing President Joe Biden and the Department of Education saying, you cannot do this. And the basis was this is illegal. Primarily two things. You don’t have the authority to do this as the president because it needs to be an act of Congress. And also the basis on which you’re doing this, you are abusing a previous law that was made in 2003 called the Heroes Act—a previous law that’s being manipulated now and used in a wrong way. You can’t do that. That is illegal. Only the Congress can do this. You can’t as the president, which means this is completely unconstitutional and you’re the president and you have one job as a president, and that is to uphold the Constitution. So basically they sued the president in early February. So the Supreme Court agreed to take up this case, and it was 42 out of 49 Republican senators signed onto this thing—42 out of 49. And this is probably not a surprise that all the Democrat senators opposed that. So all 51 Democrat senators are in favor of Biden’s plan to illegitimately try to forgive all these loans, and the Republicans are against it. This isn’t just a political reason that it was split against Republicans and Democrats. What’s driving this are worldviews—worldviews of what a Republican is and worldviews of what a Democrat is, in terms of their presuppositions and their basic convictions, really, about the law and how the law works.
The Bible’s more in line, most of the time, with the Republican platform than the Democrat one. That’s a no-brainer. So then it goes to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court finally takes it up, and then they issue a ruling on June 30th, which was just recently—less than two weeks ago—six to three. There’s nine Supreme Court Justices, six to three, and they shoot it down and say President Biden cannot do this. He has no authority. It would be illegal to do this. The Department of Education has no authority to do this, and to do this would have to take the act of the legislature or Congress, just as Nancy Pelosi previously said, and just as everybody knows to be true. And therefore, it was shot down. So what surprised me at the time are some of the many Christians that I knew who were saddened by the ruling. They were not in agreement with the six conservative justices.
Actually, it’s five conservative justices, but anyway—it was six to three. So I was a little taken aback by that. I was like, wow, it seems like if you’re a Bible believing Christian, you would agree with the ruling of six to three, right? But a lot of Christians I know, many that I respect and believe the Bible, disagreed. And in pursuing conversation with them, it turned out that they knew what the Bible said—that stealing was wrong and you should pay back your debts. But they had wrong information or misinformation or lack of information on Biden’s gig or what he was trying to do, or I should say Biden’s scam because that’s what David Bahnsen called it in his article. He called it a political ploy and a scam. And he’s a Christian economist, and he was just being objective and honest and in light of the law. This is a scam, and it was exposed as such.
So what I decided to do is I formally surveyed over 40 Christians of a certain demographic—post-college, highly educated, students—and we had a fun time talking about this topic. And I gave them a diagnostic quiz as we talked through this issue, getting their insight and opinion, and I just wanted to know what they think, not just about the Bible, but what do they know about the United States Constitution and how the law works? I had no idea what they thought or believed. So I got an education and I gave this quiz. Derek, I’m going to give it to you real quick. It’s just true and false. Just tell me true or false of what you think on these, and I’ll tell you how the students did. Okay? These are people at our church who are mostly post-college, highly educated people. I mean, we’re talking graduates of Yale, and others from Stanford and USC and UCLA and Berkeley and other colleges, and some with master’s degrees. And a lot of them did not fare well on the elementary quiz. And here was the quiz. Number one, Derek, the US Constitution is the… (and these aren’t trick questions, so if you need clarification, let me know). Question number one, the US Constitution is the Supreme law in America.
Derek: Yes.
Cliff: That is correct. There were a lot of folks that said no; they said it was false.
Derek: I was going to say, what did they say it is? I’d just be curious to know.
Cliff: Well, some people were thinking, well, God is.
Derek: Oh, I see.
Cliff: So they were over-spiritualizing the question, but others didn’t know, or may not have known anything. They thought, oh, the President. So they had some wrong thinking on that. Number two, the United States president cannot make laws. True or false?
Derek: He cannot make laws.
Cliff: That’s true. He cannot make laws. The President cannot—not his branch—make laws. It’s not the executive branch. A lot of our folks got that one wrong, Derek. So we’ve got a lot of our people who are highly educated thinking that the president can just make laws.
Derek: Probably because they don’t know what executive orders are. And we’ve got presidents always writing executive orders.
Cliff: I brought that up. You guys are probably confused by a few things. Number one, how many of you have read the constitution? Very few people will actually raise their hand. How many of you ever studied the constitution in school—public school, whatever. Very few raised their hand. I said, well, that’s a huge problem. You don’t know the constitution. Number two, let me tell you about executive orders. They’ve become so commonplace since Bill Clinton and everybody since Bill Clinton, including Donald Trump and Joe Biden, just writing an executive order. Basically, it is the president trying to make a law. And most of those executive orders aren’t even legal really. They’re not constitutional. But in this day and age with the young people, this is the country that they’re raised in. For every president they’ve ever had just writes executive orders, like they’re going out of style or like they’re pancakes. It’s like, oh yeah, the president, you can be king and make edicts. That’s their worldview. That’s all they’ve been exposed to. So number three, true or false, the president of the United States has limited powers. You said?
Derek: True.
Cliff: That is true. Number four, the United States president cannot borrow money or forgive debt.
Derek: True.
Cliff: That is also true. Number five, the United States President must enforce current US laws.
Derek: Oh, of course. Yes, he must. That’s the main job of the executives.
Cliff: That’s right. The laws are on the books. I’ve got to enforce them. That’s right. Well, President Biden wasn’t following current law by trying to do what he was doing. Number six, borrowing money and not paying it back is wrong. True or false?
Derek: True.
Cliff: That is true. Number seven, forcing others to pay someone’s debt is wrong.
Derek: True.
Cliff: That is true. Number eight, the Bible says we should pay back what we owe.
Derek: True.
Cliff: True. So Derek, you just got eight out of eight. That’s a hundred percent. Not everybody in the class, when I gave this, got a hundred percent. Oh yeah, there was a Master’s University graduate who got 10 out of 10. I can do the last two. They got a hundred percent.
Derek: Oh good. That’s encouraging.
Cliff: And I believe they also had Greg Behle in Christian Worldview class. So maybe, I don’t know if that had anything to do with that. I just thought that was interesting. And then I gave these three. Three more questions. These are simple. These were separate ballots that I gave them. This first one says, I’m going to give you three options. You agree, disagree, or I’m not sure, so therefore I abstain. And there’s just one on the college loans. President Biden canceling college loan debt for certain people up to $20,000 is a good idea. Do you agree or disagree?
Derek: I disagree.
Cliff: Yeah, that should have been the correct answer. And not everybody disagreed. They believe in the Bible and believe in biblical sufficiency. And so I think I was able to expose where the problem was or the inconsistency, and they pretty much, I think, agreed that, yeah, we probably don’t know the constitution or the laws of the land as much as we should to make a legitimate diagnosis and assessment and decision. So we’ve got to get fully informed. So for me, as a pastor, that was really helpful for me. It’s like, man, I’ve got to make sure. I can’t just pound the pulpit and say, do what the Bible says. Apply your Christian worldview. Well, there’s more to it than that. It’s harder than that. Like you said, it requires diligence and study and perseverance and getting all the updated, accurate information on the issue you’re trying to think through. So that was helpful. So just a couple of final thoughts on what the Supreme Court ruled. As we said, it was six to three. I asked the students who were there, the 40 some-odd students, how many conservative justices do we have out of the nine? And they all said six. And I said, well, actually it’s four or five because our Chief Justice Roberts—he’s not always conservative. Many times, he’s very liberal, actually. So be discerning when you hear about that. I think the Supreme Court justices made the right ruling. They made a ruling that was in keeping with human law based in the United States Constitution. And your thoughts, in a sentence, Derek, on just the United States Constitution. Do you think it’s legit? Is it good? Is it helpful? What’s a Christian attitude towards the constitution?
Derek: Well, you mentioned it’s a human document, so it’s not going to be perfect. It’s not going to be infallible. But I think comparatively, if you’re looking at structures of government throughout history and what is contained so comparatively, and then what is contained in the Constitution in terms of limiting powers between branches of government and recognizing at least implicitly a doctrine of sin—which is why you have to limit powers and these kinds of things—then I think, yeah, it’s a good document. Now obviously there were things in it that weren’t great initially that you had to have amended and things related to slavery, which we’ve talked about. But overall, it’s a good document and I’m thankful that our country is run by it. And I’m not one of those folks who complains constantly about our country. I’m thankful for the constitution and the freedoms we have. Of course, it’s not a perfect document, but I think it is a good document, particularly as it pertains to how it limits power and establishes the structure of our government.
Cliff: Yeah, I totally agree. I think the United States Constitution and their amendments, for the most part, as they’re written, they complement the Christian worldview and Christianity and our mission and what we’re trying to do. It doesn’t inhibit us.
Derek: That’s right.
Cliff: There’s nothing in the constitution that blatantly undermines what we’re trying to do as a church. Or the gospel.
Derek: That’s a good point.
Cliff: And it protects some very precious things to us, like the freedom of speech, which allows us to preach the gospel uninhibited, theoretically, and the right to assemble and go to church. So I agree with you. It’s a helpful document. So in closing, Derek, I want to get your input and just practical steps on having a biblical perspective on this whole issue and the rendering and this whole concept of getting loan forgiveness decreed from an authority that isn’t legitimate like President Biden was trying to do, and thinking through this. But I want to read just this parable real quick. We started out in that first episode saying that, to be clear, we believe in debt forgiveness and we like it. And we have life with God as a result of it. It’s the basis of our relationship with Jesus Christ. So here’s a parable that Jesus gave in Matthew 18:21 that plays into this. I don’t think I’ll read the whole thing, but after Jesus talked about the church in Matthew 18 and how to preserve purity in the church with the church discipline process that he laid out in verses 15 through 17, then Peter came up and asked Jesus a question. And Peter asked Jesus, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me?
And Peter thought he’d be generous and say, should I forgive him seven times for the same sin? So Peter thought, man, I’m really generous here. And basically Jesus’s answer is, no, you need to forgive him more than seven times. Jesus answered, I tell you, not seven times, Peter, but 70 times seven, or 77 times. This is the NIV translation, and it say 70 times seven. And then basically Jesus is saying, you need to have an ongoing, continual forgiving heart and have no bitterness whatsoever. You need to be completely forgiving, not partial or conditional in your forgiveness, and have the heart of God who’s completely, totally forgiving. And then Jesus gives this parable showing the forgiveness of God and his heart of forgiveness. Contrary to us—we tend to be unforgiving, bitter people who hold grudges. So here’s Jesus’s parable to accentuate God’s kind, forgiving heart towards undeserving sinners. Jesus told this parable. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. So here God is the king. He wants to settle accounts with his servants. People owe God a debt, the servants. We are in debt to God because we’re sinful, he’s holy, and we can’t live without his forgiveness. So therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him 10,000 bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay the debt, the master ordered the slave that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. Whoa. Seems kind of harsh.
The master is requiring full payment. You need to pay back your debts, basically, is what he’s saying. And this is speaking of God. So God says, no, debts need to be paid. That’s just verse 26 at this. The servant who was in debt to the king, or God, fell on his knees before his master and cried out and said, be patient with me. He begged. And I will pay back everything. And the servant’s master, or God the king, took pity on him, had compassion, canceled the debt and let him go. Wow. So there’s an example of God showing the legitimacy of debt forgiveness, which is a biblical principle, and it flows from the heart of God. And Jesus’ whole point is, this is your heavenly Father. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister. So God’s willing to forgive, but there has to be a legal basis by which to forgive. There has to be proper authority to forgive. A price has to be paid in order to forgive. How is it that God can forgive sinners who are indebted to him? What price was paid? Do you want to comment on that, Derek?
Derek: Yeah. So the only way God can forgive our sins is if that debt is paid. And it’s not by fiat. He doesn’t just do it like in Islam. I’ve talked to Muslims. How does Allah forgive you? He just does. Oh, he just does. Well, that means he’s unjust because you have a debt, and you have sinned against him. And in Christianity, the debt is paid and it’s paid perfectly, fully, and completely by the Lord Jesus Christ, his perfect life and his death on the cross. And so that debt is fully paid in my place. So now when God says you are forgiven, he’s still at the same time completely just in doing that. He hasn’t broken any laws. He’s fulfilled and that debt has been paid. He’s been fully satisfied, he’s been repaired, so to speak, in terms of the one who should be paid the debt, and therefore we are forgiven and God remains just.
Cliff: Yep. And what we owe God is not money, but what we owe is our blood or death.
Derek: That’s right. Yeah.
Cliff: And that’s the price that you’re talking about that Jesus paid. His perfect, infinite death as the God-Man that totally satisfied God. So there was a legal transaction that was recognized, met, and paid, just like you said—not fiat without consequence. Literally a legal transaction that enables God to forgive sinners because Jesus literally paid that debt. So I’d like to close, Derek, with a biblical perspective and some biblical principles on this whole issue of debt, debt forgiveness, paying back loans, those kinds of things. Number one. Some of this is just recap. Number one is get all the relevant, accurate information on the particular issue before you make a decision. Number two, get all the biblical data that’s relevant to that issue so you’re not missing anything. Number three, we need to keep in mind that borrowing is allowed. Would you agree with that? That at times we can borrow. Some Christians say you should never borrow or never go into debt. I don’t think that’s true. Borrowing is allowed in the Bible, yet with warnings. The Proverbs are clear that if you do go into debt, you become a slave. You’ve got to pay to count the cost. You have to watch out for interest. And then number four, as you just said, you’ve got to pay back all your debts. You’re obligated to pay it back according to the Bible. Number five, not paying debts is stealing according to the Bible. Evil. As a matter of fact, the Psalms say it’s wicked. That’s the word used in Psalm 37:21. The wicked borrows, but does not pay back. But the righteous is generous and gives and also pays back. So not paying back debts is stealing. Number six, don’t be a beggar. Second Thessalonians three: you don’t work, you don’t eat. Pay your own bills. Don’t be begging from people. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Second Thessalonians three. Maybe that’s what inspired that phrase.
Derek: Yeah, good point.
Cliff: Number seven, you’ve written a lot on this topic. Work hard so that you can pay your bills. And Ephesians says, give generously. We don’t make money just to pay our bills and go on vacation. Right? Paul’s explicit. One of the main reasons you work is to make money so you can be generous to other people. That’s the Christian ethic. Number eight, seek legitimate forms of reduction or forgiveness, not illegitimate ones. And there are legitimate forms of debt forgiveness. Sometimes if you pay it back early, you can get a break on the interest or whatever. Or if you go into a qualified field of vocation as a teacher in low income areas and whatever, there’s even more that you can look into where you’re qualified. The lender has to be involved in the granting of the forgiveness process.
Derek: That’s right.
Cliff: Not a third party.
Derek: That’s right. That’s what’s wrong. One of the things that’s wrong with the whole government saying, we’re going to forgive debts is because they’re coming in as a third party. The transactions are between the lender and the one who’s received the loan to go to college. So that’s where it needs to happen.
Cliff: And it’s doubly wrong on the third party thing because it’s a third party trying to say, your debts are forgiven instead of the lender. And then they’re putting the onus on another third party. Your debts are forgiven and we’re going to make those other taxpayers pay it. And then finally, number nine, and a lot of Christians don’t like this verse, but it’s in Peter and Romans 13. Jesus said it, too. Pay your taxes, render to God the things that are God’s, and to Caesar, the things that are Caesar’s. Wow. And God, he is our sufficiency. He will meet all of our needs no matter what. Trust in him. That’s the bottom line. So all you Christians out there who had your fingers crossed, hoping for this Biden plan to pass so you’d get all your college loans forgiven—you were putting your trust in a man, in an institution and in the government where it had no place. When as a Christian, your trust needs to be fully in God. I got a bunch of debt. I’m going to trust God. He’s going to help me pay this back.
Derek: And hoping it’s something that wasn’t even fully morally acceptable. Anyways, once you start digging, and I’m not faulting Christians and saying that a lot of Christians who wanted their debts forgiven were knowingly hoping for something that was wrong—I don’t think that was the case. I just don’t think they had thought through it far enough and thoroughly enough to realize, oh no, it’s actually wrong, and I shouldn’t be hoping for this. But the reality is, that by hoping for this, you are actually hoping for something that’s not legitimate.
Cliff: Yes, they were hoping in ignorance.
Derek: Right? Hoping in ignorance. Yeah.
Cliff: Hence Jesus’ words from the cross. Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
Derek: Well, this has been great, Cliff. Thank you very much for taking us through that. We hope it’s been helpful for you. Again, just applying a biblical worldview to a current event. And you can do this on your own. In fact, we encourage you to do that as you’re reading the news, as you’re watching shows, as you’re listening to your favorite podcast, whatever it is. Be always applying biblical truth to that situation, to that topic, trying to understand that topic thoroughly, completely, and truthfully. And then trying to apply all that scripture has to say about that topic. And it is a lot of hard work, but it’s what leads to spiritual maturity. And it will help you become discerning and sharp in your thinking and you’ll honor the Lord. You’ll be protected from deception. Your mind will be clear, your conscience will be clear. You’ll walk in righteousness, and there’ll be all kinds of spiritual blessing in your life as you become better and better at discerning these things. So we encourage you to do that. Again, check out withallwisdom.org. There are plenty of resources there to help you as to help you grow in discernment. And until next time, keep seeking the Lord in His Word.
