Spending the last 15-20 work-free years of your life in relative ease and hobby-chasing seems to be the default American attitude toward retirement. But what does the Bible say about how Christians should view work and life in our latter years? Should we have a retirement account? How should we use our time during our retirement? In this episode Derek Brown and Cliff McManis address these questions and many others to help you think biblically about this important topic. Whether you are just starting your career or just starting your retirement, you will want to tune in to this week’s discussion.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to the With All Wisdom podcast, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown, pastor and elder at Creekside Bible Church and academic dean at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary, and I’m here again today with Cliff McManis, pastor and teacher at Creekside Bible Church and professor of theology at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary, and the author of several books. We mentioned this last week, and the one I want to highlight this week is what the Bible says about confrontation, and you’ll be able to find that at withallwisdom.org. And I remember when Cliff first wrote this book, and I had the opportunity to read the galley copy and go through it, and I was, at the time, really impressed by it and told Cliff it was the most important book that he had written. Do you remember?
Cliff: I do.
Derek: Up to that point, I thought it was the most important book that he had written because the issue of confrontation really does come down to become an essential part of our relationships, needing to talk to each other, speak the truth to each other in love. And I want to highlight that book today. Check it out at withallwisdom.org. And today, we are going to talk about the issue of retirement. And last week, we talked about church and state and COVID-19. Today, we’re going to talk about retirement, and you might be wondering why retirement is important. And the first reason is because in a podcast like this, we can talk about any issue in life because the Bible addresses every issue in life. And just in a text exchange that we had last week, talking about what we’re going to talk about this week, you said every topic is fair game. And I just thought that was such a good way to approach a podcast like this, where we have the Word of God and have the opportunity to speak to every single issue in life. And so this issue of retirement is fair game.
Cliff: Amen.
Derek: But also, this topic has been on my mind. And for the last few weeks, as I’ve been writing an article for withallwisdom.org that we’ll publish later in November, so I’ve had a chance to reflect on this issue a little more deeply. And as I’ve been thinking about it, I’ve realized how ubiquitous this topic is. It just does seem, the more you consider it and look around, it does seem to consume a lot of our thinking, our aims, our goals in life. And here’s one example. In many jobs, the standard benefits that companies will offer you when you come into the job, your first full-time job out of college, is a retirement plan, some sort of retirement plan, usually a 401k. And so what’s happening in your very first job out of college, you’re already preparing for time when you won’t work. And so then your work becomes, as we’ll see, a kind of aim towards retirement, aiming towards a time when you won’t work. But even if you didn’t receive a 401k in your compensation package, you live in a country where retirement is the default status for those around the age of 62, which is the current average age for retirement here. In America. And then from a federal government perspective, Social Security is designed to help you ease into your latter years when you won’t be earning an income by providing you, the government providing you with a monthly check to take care of you when you won’t be working. But sociologically, it’s simply assumed that you’re supposed to work for about 40 years and then begin to taper off around age 65 or so. And then for many, at least now, and we’ll talk about why this is the case, it seems that the expectation for those last 15 to 20 years of your life should be spent in a relative ease, some recreation, things you want to do, picking up hobbies and so on.
In other words, you really work hard for 40 years and then enjoy a well-earned rest and relaxation and some time to do the things you really want to do. And in case that sounds unfamiliar with you, which I don’t think it probably would, I want to just give a few examples from our culture that highlight this view towards retirement. So here’s how one article describes retirement that I read. This past week, it says, “Ah, retirement, it’s the never-ending weekend, that well-deserved oasis of freedom and rest we reach after decades of hard work.” And then Lexico.com defines retirement this way: “The action or fact of leaving one’s job and ceasing to work.” That’s the first definition. And then below that definition is a kind of sub-definition, which says, “The period of one’s life after retiring from work.” Then as an example of the use of that word, it says, “He spent much of his retirement traveling in Europe.” And so this just seems to be, the default approach attitude towards retirement.
Cliff: The American way.
Derek: The American way. You work really hard. You earn a fair amount of money. You’re able to amass a certain amount of money that then allows you to spend the last few years of your life in relative ease, doing what you want, not working, traveling, recreation, whatever it might be. And the question I had was, how did we get here? How did this develop sociologically in our country, economically? And there’s a really helpful timeline. There’s a really helpful timeline produced by Georgetown University, their law school, that puts a few important highlights of the development of retirement in the United States. You can access that at georgetown.edu. But the timeline begins in 1875 when the American Express Company, ever heard of them? They created the first pension plan. And then in the 19th century, or late 19th century, the timeline tells us that about 75% of all males over 65 are working. And if they aren’t, it’s likely due to disability. So people are working. They’re working past 65. And if you’re not working, it’s due to something significant like a disability. In 1900, by 1900, life expectancy is about 49. And those who live to age 60 can expect to live, on average, another 12 years. And the timeline says, “In general, workers continue to work as long as they are able.” This is 1900. Between 1900 and 1918, private pension plans begin to grow, or continue to grow, rather. And then 1919, over 300 pensions. Pension plans exist, covering about 15% of all workers. Quoting the timeline again, it says, “The growth and pension coverage is attributed to employers’ desire to attract workers, reduce labor turnover, and more humanely remove older, less productive employees.” So you can begin to see now why there is a desire for these pension plans to ease people out of their work and then into a life of retirement, which at this time wasn’t expected to go for very long. People weren’t expected to live long after they were retired. In 1935, Social Security is enacted, which established at the time, 65 is the normal retirement age. At the time of enactment, it is believed that most workers would not live for an extended period after retirement, and thus they would receive Social Security benefits for only a minimal amount of time. In 1940, 4.1 million private sector workers, which is 15% of all private sector workers, are covered by a pension plan. And similar to Social Security, these plans were designed with the expectancy that they would need to pay benefits for only a minimal number of years of retirement after the participants eased out of work and before their death. So they just weren’t planning on paying these post-retirement benefits for long because they didn’t expect people to live long after their retirement. But one thing to highlight here is that one of the main reasons why Social Security and pension plans were developed was in order to protect people from poverty in their old age.
That was a serious concern. You didn’t want a big group of people in your society falling into poverty as they got older and were unable to work. So that was a large part of the motivation. 1945, nearly 75% of working Americans pay income tax, which made tax-deferred pension income more attractive. So you see now growth in pension savings. 1978, the Revenue Act of 1978 established qualified deferred compensation plans. We all know these as 401k plans, and these allow for tax-free growth of deferred… compensation. 1983, you have the Social Security Amendments and the Social Security Act to gradually raise the normal retirement age from 65 to 67. And then in 1984, you have the Retirement Equity Act of 84, which strengthened participation rules by lowering minimum age of a plan that a plan may require for enrollment from 25 to 21, which meant that now you could be saving for a longer period of time. You could save for retirement, not starting at age 25, but now at age 21, giving you an extra… four years.
In 2006, another important point on the timeline is that life expectancy is now at age 74 for men and 79 for women. So this is 2006. A man who reaches the age of 65 can expect to live to age 81, and a woman who reaches the age of 65 can expect to live to age 84. And I just highlight that last point to demonstrate now, not only do you have a kind of strong retirement plan in the private sector and now established Social Security, but you also have longer life expectancy. And so I note that you have a confluence of a few factors here in America that contribute to this view of retirement. First, you have the access to significant growing wealth. Our country has become more and more wealthy. People have greater access to wealth. That is definitely the case over the last 150 years since that first pension plan was put in place by American Express. You also have the development of government-based and privately funded retirement plans to provide for workers and spouses in their old age. And then you have longer life expectancy so that it’s now possible to plan for a time in your life when you have a steady income without a job, no need to work, and several extra years to enjoy your non-working life. Now, there are some concern with financial analysts today that people aren’t saving enough for retirement, but that doesn’t seem to change the general approach that people have even today towards retirement. So economically, you have the opportunity to create wealth so that you don’t have to work at all or as much in your latter years. So that’s the economic situation. Medically, we’re living longer and with better health. And then socially, we’ve developed a notion of retirement that it’s the time when you stop working to spend a good bulk of your time on recreational pursuits and enjoy a season of well-earned rest. And the reason I want to talk about this is because I think it would be naive to conclude that Christians haven’t been influenced by this view of retirement. I mean, we live and breathe in this culture and it just would be naive to think that we haven’t been influenced. In a way, now, just as a default, we start thinking about retirement and we assume that the normal state for someone in their early to mid-60s is to stop working and take some extended time off. So I want to ask you, Cliff, what are your thoughts about the current state of how Americans think about retirement? And is this an accurate assessment?
Cliff: Yeah, you began that segment with asking the question, how did we get here? Meaning, there is a dominating view of retirement here in America where we live. It’s pretty, like you said, ubiquitous or universal. That’s a great question. How did we get here? And you made it pretty clear. You and Georgetown, on your timeline, two things just jump out. As it begins in 1875, these very formal things put in place and then culminating up to 2006. So how did we get here? Clearly, this tells me this is a recent phenomenon. Very recent in terms of world history. And then also, it’s American in its phenomenon. It wasn’t started or driven by somewhere else in the world. It’s trickled around around the world and other places and countries try to follow our model. But we’re talking definitely something that is recent. It’s also current and it’s American.
So in that regard, it is unique. And in light of that, I just had a few observations. First of all, you mentioned an article you wrote on this a couple of weeks ago for With All Wisdom. And I’m one of the editors. So this was just a few weeks ago. And I remember reading that article and editing your article. And in the middle of it, and especially when I was done, I thought, wow, more people need to hear about this. We need to talk about this. The church isn’t talking about this. Most Christians don’t even think about this. Many believers don’t stop and think, what is my Christian worldview regarding retirement? And is that even a discussion we ever have? Hardly ever. I mean, I’m a pastor. You’re a pastor. This conversation hardly happens at all among Christians or in the church. So when I read your article, I thought, this needs a wide readership. We need to talk about this. We need to get the word out. This needs a broad platform. And so when you, shortly after that, decided you wanted to do this as a podcast topic, I got very excited.
I thought, this is very timely. Because what other form or platform do we have to talk about this and give it due attention that it needs? And I think this is perfect. So as I was reading, I was reading your article and I thought all believers need to grapple with this issue. I immediately thought of when I became a Christian at age 19, I did not grow up with a biblical Christian worldview. So everything was new as I began studying the Bible. And I remember distinctly when I was 20 years old, I’d been a believer about for one year. And I heard of just a great biblical sermon by a great Bible teacher who was talking about work. And he intersected with this issue. And I’ll never forget what he said. This is over 30 years ago. And the summary of the point he wanted to make in a sermon from the Bible was when he said, basically, Christians don’t live for retirement. That rocked my world. I’d never heard of such a thing.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: Because I didn’t grow up as a Christian studying the Bible with a Christian worldview. So that jolted me in many respects. I’d say all for the better because I had to totally rethink everything I had been programmed to think as an American and also in the non-Christian home that I grew up in. About retirement and job and work and everything else and vocation. So that was over 30 years ago. It changed my thinking forever. Just that one sermon. So that was encouraging because I’m thinking maybe just this one podcast, as we look at this issue from a biblical worldview, can do the same for believers out there who maybe haven’t been exposed with the Christian worldview on this issue of retirement. So thanks for writing that article. That was great.
Derek: Yeah, you bet.
Cliff: And I think— What I wanted to give my attention to in complementing what you’re saying during this podcast is I want to take issue with the idea, not just of retirement, but of American retirement.
Derek: Sure, right.
Cliff: The version that you just gave the background of. Because I would say that American retirement, as traditionally understood, currently understood, is categorically not biblical.
Derek: Correct. That’s the view I take.
Cliff: Typically, I am not a proponent of deconstructionism because it’s a postmodern pagan idea.
Derek: Sure.
Cliff: But I will fully give myself gleefully to deconstruction of the American notion of retirement so that we can replace it with a biblical understanding of not just retirement, but what the Bible has to say about your vocation and service and work and all those things. And you have many things to say on that topic. So because I’m kind of picking on American retirement as we’re defining it. Because part of your question was commenting on American retirement in light of Christians and then have they been affected by the world.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: We have definitely been, like Corinthians, Paul says, do not be influenced by the world.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: And if there’s one area where believers have been influenced by the world, it’s this area. Because I don’t see much distinction from your average Christian from an average unbeliever here in America about their view of retirement.
Derek: Right. It’s just the default attitude.
Cliff: It is. Yeah, you used the word default, which is exactly right. It’s uniform for the most part.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: So this idea and just the American version of retirement, as we’re describing, is unique in that it’s recent. It’s not historically what’s been true of world history at all. It’s not in the Bible.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: Retirement’s in the Bible, but not this kind of fabricated, really almost fictitious form of retirement. It’s not in the Bible. And it’s also currently not what dominates the world. So I’ve been able to go a few places around the world for Bible teaching and training pastors from Mexico, Honduras, Siberia, Russia, Ukraine, Africa, India. Some of those places I continue to go back to time and time again. And virtually in every one of those places that I go to, very different than America. People aren’t thinking of, when I turn 65, I’m going to retire.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: For the most part, the masses are thinking how they’re going to live next week. There are rich people in these countries. Like I remember when I was in Honduras, Ukraine, and in Africa, while I was there near the big cities, my hosts would drive me to where the mega mansions are surrounded by their walls and their fences. And they say, that’s where the rich people live. Or really, that’s where the politicians live.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: That’s where the president lives. And so there’s only two classes. There’s the dictator and the rich, and then the masses or the poor. And that’s actually more comparable and parallel to what was going on in biblical history, really.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: So what we have here in America is definitely an enigma and not representative of what’s going on in the world today or in the world throughout history. So I think we need a reality check and the Bible can give it to us.
Derek: Well, I think that’s exactly where we want to turn our attention. And that’s the focus of this podcast and will always be the focus of this podcast. The question is, what does Scripture say about this? We’re only going to have clarity on this issue or any other issues. We talk about and consider what Scripture has to say about this issue. So you already brought it up, Cliff. What we need to talk about first, the basic backdrop to this conversation is, what does Scripture say about work? And so I just want to do a quick biblical theology. There’s so much that could be said about this topic. It’s really become a renewed topic of discussion among evangelicals, it seems, in the last 15 to 20 years, lots of books being written on vocation and work and the value of it. And so we can’t say nearly all that we want to say about this important topic, but we’ll just say a few things. First, what we see, we’re going to search the Scriptures here. So first, what we see in Genesis 1 is that God is a worker. God is a designer. He’s a builder. He’s a craftsman. He forms and creates this glorious, beautiful world with great wisdom and intricacy and Planning. And then He creates humankind in His own image and makes Him and her a worker. And their work was to exercise dominion over the earth, to subdue it. To bring it under their rulership and to make it useful to themselves and to others. You see this in Genesis 1, 26 through 31. And then in Genesis 2, God zooms in on what happens on the sixth day. So sometimes people misread Genesis 1 and 2. They think Genesis 2 is a separate creation account. It’s not. It’s zooming in on day 6. And the reason we know that is because on day 6 in chapter 1, the man and woman are there together in Genesis 2, only the man. So He’s zooming in. God’s zooming in now. And we get to see the creation of man and woman distinctly. But in Genesis 2, He shows us what happens on the sixth day. And He creates Adam and breathes into him the breath of life and then immediately puts him into the garden to work it and keep it. That’s what the text says. And just another important reminder, this is all happening prior to the fall. So God institutes working in and keeping the garden prior to the fall.
Cliff: So work is not a curse.
Derek: Work is not a curse. Exactly. And the curse makes work hard and occasionally fruitless and sometimes frustrating, but it’s not itself a curse. It’s actually a good thing, a gift from God. And actually, if we consider the image of God and how God has made us and the first thing He sets us about doing when He first creates Adam, we can see that our capacity to work is actually a fundamental component of who we are, a fundamental component of our personhood.
And we’ll come back to that truth later. So I want you to hold on to that thought, that idea that this capacity to work is a fundamental component of our personhood because, as we’ll see in recent studies, there are some health perils that come along with retirement. And we’ll have to consider why that’s the case from a biblical perspective. But it isn’t until after the fall and then the curse on the woman and man that they find their work to be frustrating and painful. We talked about that. Their work is still good, however, but now due to the curse, it’s often difficult, sometimes futile. We mentioned that. But as we move on through Genesis, we know that God still places a high premium on our human calling to exercise dominion and to engage in productive labor because of how work intertwines with Israel’s history and how Solomon talks about work in the Proverbs. So first, just to consider Israel, God instructs His people that they were to work six days out of the week and rest on the seventh. This is Exodus 23:12. Six days. This is God telling Israel how they’re going to conduct themselves. Six days you shall do all your work, but on the seventh you shall rest. And that’s interesting because I think a lot of us assume that it’s a five-day work week. But actually, you’re intended to work six days a week and take a rest on the seventh. So the Israelites were to be engaged in productive labor, provide for themselves, their family, and for the benefit of the community six out of the seven days a week.
That’s one of the primary callings of the community of Israel. And then you get to the Proverbs and you have Solomon talking like this. He’d say things like this in Proverbs chapter six. He’d say, Go to the aunt, O sluggard. Consider her ways and be wise. Without having any chief officer or ruler, she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food and harvest. How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber and want like an armed man. So what do you have here is Solomon’s exalting diligence and he’s chastising the sluggard. Proverbs 13:4 says, The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing. While the soul of the diligent is richly supplied. 21:5 says, The plans of the diligent surely lead to abundance, but everyone who is hasty only comes to poverty. And then you might think, well, that’s just Old Testament. But then you come to the New Testament and you see similar kinds of teaching. You have Jesus, for example, in Matthew 25, when he talks about that he gives the parable of the talents. And he actually chides the one who hides his talent in the ground. And refuses to develop and improve and multiply the resources and the opportunities that he’s been given. And that’s how we’re to view these talents. These are financial resources, spiritual gifts, time, energy, opportunities, natural talents that the Lord has given to us that he expects us to multiply, to use for his glory and for the good of others. In Ephesians 4:29, Paul says to the new convert, Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. And then in 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12, Paul instructs the believers to quote aspire to live quietly and to mind their own affairs to work with their own hands as we instructed you so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one. Now, here’s what’s interesting about that word aspire. It’s the same word that Paul uses when he says, I make it my ambition. That’s the same word to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named. So actually, Paul says he has this ambition, this passion to preach Christ where he hasn’t been named. And he says, you need to have an ambition too, a passion, and that’s to earn your own living, work quietly, don’t be dependent on anyone. That’s quite remarkable that he puts work at such a high level. Then in 2 Thessalonians, in a really important text when we’re talking about work, where Paul admonishes some people in the congregation who apparently were not working. Whatever the situation was, they seemed to think it were more spiritual not to work, or they were simply lazy, whatever the case. Paul actually makes this a point of confrontation. He says this, now we command you brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you keep away from any brother who’s walking in idleness and not accord to the tradition you receive from us. And that tradition was, you work hard, just like we did. Paul could have received an income or sustenance from the Thessalonians, but he chose not to. Rather, he chose to work and earn his own keep while ministering to them. He didn’t have to do that, but he did. And that was, he had given that example. For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. Because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it. But with toil and labor, we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we did not have the right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we would give you this command. If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busy bodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly, and to earn their own living.
Cliff: Whoa.
Derek: Yeah, that’s, if you think for a moment and you ask somebody, how does Scripture, how does the Bible view work? They may give you some ideas about the necessity to work and the importance of work, but I just wonder how many would take you to this passage and say, well, if someone’s idle in your current setting, you actually need to confront them to get to work.
Cliff: Well, this is outright scandalous.
Derek: It is.
Cliff: In American culture.
Derek: It is.
Cliff: That phrase right there in verse 10? If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat? Is that really in the Bible?
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: That doesn’t sound loving.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: Wow.
Derek: But in fact, it is, because that’s precisely what God has created us to do.
Cliff: Yep.
Derek: To work, to earn our own living. And so, I just wanted to run us through that very quick biblical theology. I really wish we could just do a whole podcast on just the theology of work, but I wanted to do that just to lay it alongside, our modern-day American conception of retirement, which, here’s what it does. It has us look forward to a time in our lives when we no longer have to work. Scripture, on the whole, highly values work, considers it a vital part of our human personhood, and admonishes those who refuse to work. So, it doesn’t seem that retirement, at least as it is understood by many in America, as a time when you stop working and focus on recreational pursuits and hobbies, doesn’t seem that that’s a biblical category.
Cliff: Yep.
Derek: And you’ve already mentioned that. So, now, I think it’s important to add this point. For many people working today, it is not wise for them to continue in their current line of work into their old age. I think we need to recognize that.
Cliff: Yep.
Derek: There are some people who work in construction, they operate heavy equipment, or some other physically demanding job, and it’s simply not wise or safe for them, or in some cases, even possible for them to continue in that line of work into their old age. And there are other cases when a person may be forced into retirement because of an injury. So, we can acknowledge all these circumstances while saying at the same time that Scripture doesn’t have us looking forward to a time in our lives when we stop working, even if we are able to quit our current line of work and no longer need, due to a retirement account or pension or whatever it might be, income from our job. And the reason I say that is because Scripture calls the Christian to be rich in good works.
Cliff: Yeah.
Derek: So, you think, well, Derek, you know, I’ve saved, I was diligent, I am able to retire at age 65, or I’m in a situation where I need to, given the kind of work that I’m in, I can’t do this work into my old age. And I would say, okay, that’s fine, but you also have multiple texts in Scripture that exhort you to be rich in good works, so that this idea of productive labor for the benefit of others actually never stops in the Christian’s life. And just a few, I’m not going to read all that I have here, but the text that we turn to often to describe the grace of God and salvation, Ephesians 2:8-10 actually talks about this. It says, for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing. It is a gift of God, not as a result of works so no one may boast. For we as his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. And in Titus 2:13-14. This gives us one of the primary reasons Jesus saved us. It says, we are waiting for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works. So, Jesus died to create for Himself a people who are zealous for good works. And I don’t see any area in the Scripture, I don’t see any textual variants that say, oh, until you’re 65. And then 1 Timothy 6:17-19, a really important text because I think by the standard that you’re using, considering the whole world, by any standard, Americans on the whole are quite wealthy.
So, this, I think, is an important text because it says, As for the rich in this present age, Paul’s telling Timothy, how should you instruct the rich in this present age? Well, I think that covers most Americans. Charge them not to be haughty or proud about their wealth, or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life. So, the point that I want to make is that Scripture doesn’t really have us ever looking forward to a time when we’re relieved from serving the Lord and serving others through productive labor. And as we get older, that productive labor and those good works may and will often take a different shape because we are getting older, and we don’t have the same strength and energy, that we used to. So, that’s an obvious thing. But the calling to use our talents to make the most of our time, to serve the Lord, to serve others, to engage in productive labor that makes us useful to others doesn’t stop at age 65, or really any other arbitrary age you might choose.
I know some people try to retire early, and that’s a sign of great success or whatever. Here’s what’s interesting, and we brought this up earlier about when I said, hold on to the thought that we’ve been created, to work, and it’s a really fundamental component of our personhood. What’s interesting is that you find, this is kind of, it seems to be a recent phenomenon. These studies are coming out, and it seems to be rather recent as far as I can tell. But there are actually indications that when retirement is approached as a time when you don’t work and you take the next 15 years off, it’s actually not good for your health. And just a few points. Formal retirement, these are taken from actual studies that have been conducted, and you can find these kinds of articles online pretty easily. But here’s a few points. Formal retirement can raise one’s risk of succumbing to various physical ailments, such as, now quoting an article, severe cardiovascular disease and cancer, and increased risk factors, BMI, cholesterol, blood pressure, and increased problems in physical activities. Here’s another point. Other studies suggest that retirees may experience a cognitive decline in their post-work years that would be offset by, say, continued labor. So this idea that you’re not as strong mentally and you need to find ways to keep your mind active. You see a lot of these commercials for these kinds of things, how to help you keep your cognitive abilities up while you are older. Actually, one of the things that would help that is if you remain engaged in productive labor. Setting aside the daily routine of work can lead to, this is another article, it can lead to the development of more sedentary and otherwise unhealthy habits such as like increased eating, drinking, and smoking. And then the lack of purposeful work can also result in a kind of aimlessness and depression. And here’s what’s interesting. So there’s a New York Times article I just went through briefly right before this podcast. And it was written by someone who says, we need to rethink retirement. He’s not coming from a biblical perspective, but he just said, people are getting into their second decade of retirement and you know what? They’re just bored. They don’t know what they’re doing or should be doing. And I thought that was an interesting, So, given what we know about our design by God to exercise dominion, these studies, I think they make sense in light of a biblical worldview. That God has created us to work. It’s a fundamental component of our personhood. And when you shut it down at a certain age and just plan to spend the next 15 years neglecting a fundamental component of your personhood, it makes sense that your health is going to decline. So, my question, Cliff, is any thoughts, do you have any thoughts about how Scripture has us think about work and serving others in light of this modern idea of retirement and these recent studies on how our health is negatively affected?
Cliff: Yeah, I do. That was very helpful. Key scriptures in there of a theology of work. And I think it is important to note that when we say work. As Christians and those who believe in the Bible, we have a different understanding of what that means than an unbeliever. Because for an unbeliever, when they hear the word work, they’re just probably strictly thinking of their vocation.
Derek: Yeah, good point.
Cliff: Whereas for us as believers, at least we should, we could think of work maybe in a twofold manner. There is our vocation, whatever that may be, but also just work that never stops, which came from a lot of those verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, that work is synonymous with service to God.
Derek: Yeah, good.
Cliff: And in Martin Luther’s mind, the great reformer, those overlapped.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: There wasn’t a whole lot of separation between the two that whatever your vocation was, that was a calling that God has given you and gifted you to please him in all that you do. And it shouldn’t really ever stop in this life. So that’s one distinction from a Christian point of view that we need to keep in mind. But at the same time, when we are talking about work, you know, we’re picking on this American fabrication. We’re picking on this American fabrication of retirement that we, in terms of as we’re critiquing it, we aren’t saying that retirement in and of itself is bad.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: Really, the way I would say it from a biblical point of view, retirement’s in the Bible, but the emphasis there is more on a transition that you might need to take practically at a certain season in life.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: And you’d mentioned that a little earlier. So we’re not disregarding. So I guess I hope people don’t take away from this. Pastor Cliff and Pastor Derek said retirement is wrong. No, that’s not what we’re saying. It’s this American notion that is wholly unbiblical, that has the wrong priorities.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: There is a biblical answer to this. We just want to expose the counterfeit. For example, I’m thinking of an earlier statement you made that when you reach a certain age, you may have to do things differently.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: Pull back a little bit.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: Practically speaking. There’s a precedent in Scripture for that. I just think of the Levites in Numbers chapter 8 specifically where God told Moses, okay, for the priests that are going to serve, and that was hard work if you were a priest. Especially, you’re serving all day long in front of the tent. You’re dealing with all that. You’ve got to wrestle all these big animals. Somebody brings an oxen and a bull to you, and you’re responsible for wrestling this thing down and cutting its throat and chopping it up. Man, you’re talking about hard work.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: And so God gave age requirements. You can’t be a priest until you’re 25, and when you’re 50, you must retire. It says in Numbers chapter 8. But that doesn’t mean quit work for the rest of your life.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: That doesn’t mean that at all. It doesn’t mean you stop working when you retire. It’s you need to change in light of your age.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: So, he says if you’re a priest and you’re 50, you retire from that full time, but you may assist. You may continue to assist in the work. That made me think of Proverbs. I think it’s Proverbs chapter 20 where Scripture is clear where God says that strength is the glory of young men. And when you’re younger, you have stamina and strength that you won’t have when you’re older. And when you get older and you lose strength and stamina, and then your glory is your gray hair, your wisdom and experience.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: So, that may be one of the practical reasons God said, okay, priest, I want you to retire at age 50 because you’re too old for it. I know you haven’t hit 50 yet, but I hit 50 not long ago, and man, I couldn’t believe it. It’s like I ran into a brick wall. There is definitely a difference between being 40 and 50. I just…
Derek: I can’t wait.
Cliff: I couldn’t conjure up the strength that I used to have, especially on the basketball court. So, the Bible definitely speaks of changes and transitions in your vocation at different times that are in God’s will. God’s Scripture definitely deals with what I would call the seasons of life or periods of transition and change. We even see this in Paul’s epistles where he addresses categories of people in different demographics, and sometimes his different demographics are based on age.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: Like, he gives commands to children, to their parents, to young men, to young women, to older men, to older women. So, that’s based on your season of life. There’s a new expectation for you from God as a steward to continue in the work and in service of ministry to him based on your age. We need to be a good steward of it. And also, the category of widows is very specific.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: 1 Timothy 5 even gives an age of 60 years old.
Derek: That’s right.
Cliff: So, there is that. And that needs to be recognized. So, we’re just talking about being a good steward at the season of life that we’re in. So, we’re not just categorically saying that retirement in and of itself is wrong, unbiblical or evil. As a matter of fact, you and I, we shepherd in the same church. And as I read your article in Preparing for Today, I was just blessed thinking about all these wonderful servants we have in our church. Some of the most proactive saints we have serving faithfully, working hard in our church are people who are supposedly in retirement age.
Derek: Yeah. I know. I love it.
Cliff: Yeah. They are a blessing all the way from down on their knees to laying tile in the bathroom to an older woman of God we have who spends pretty much all of her time discipling and counseling younger women.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: Which is exactly what the Bible says.
Derek: Exactly.
Cliff: That is hard work. It’s grueling. But they are an absolute blessing. We even have some folks who actually have retired vocationally from their work and they’re giving almost full time in service to the church and ministry.
Derek: Yeah. What a blessing.
Cliff: Exactly.
Derek: And I think that’s such a helpful balance to keep in mind. Some of the hardest workers, at least in our experience right now, is those people who are in retirement because they’re able to do that.
Cliff: Yep.
Derek: And I think that leads naturally into the question of retirement accounts because, again, someone might be thinking, well, are you saying that retirement accounts are wrong or sinful? And I would say, no. First of all, that’d be rather inconsistent because me and you have retirement accounts that we are trying to do the best to plan for the future. But our simple aim in this episode is just to help you think more biblically about what you’re going to do in your latter years. We don’t believe it’s wrong to prepare for a time when you may not be able to work at the same level that you’re currently working. For those in professions we already mentioned who require a lot of physical labor, this is going to be particularly important. But assuming that we will be able to afford to step back from work as we get older or no longer need income from a job, we want you to ask yourself, how are you going to ask yourself, how should I view my retirement? What am I saving for? You know, I think about these saints that are, they don’t have to work anymore. They don’t have to earn an income. They are able to save for the future.
But now they’re free to serve the church in remarkable ways. And I think about my hope, hopefully my retirement, and I hope for that, a time when I’m able to give myself to other ministries that the church might need, and not to ever quit working, but if I can. If I don’t need to be earning income full-time or whatever it might be, that I can give myself to a host of other ministries that I’m currently not able to do. So we want you to think about your retirement in that way. Also, from the biblical text we’ve already examined, I hope you’ve started to see that our default hope shouldn’t be to spend the last 15 to 25 years of our life in self-serving ease. And so as I was considering this podcast. I didn’t mention this passage in the article, but do want to bring up this passage because as I was considering this podcast, as I put that last section in there, I thought no other text, at least not to my mind, in the Bible, more directly addresses this American idea of retirement than Luke 12. And so I’m going to read that and just say a few words about it. So this is…Someone comes up to Jesus and he says, Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me. And this is how Jesus responds. He said to him, Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you? And he said to him, Take care and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. And he told them a parable saying, The land of a rich man produced plentifully. And he thought to himself, What shall I do? For I have nowhere to store my crops. And he said, I will do this. I will tear down my barns and I’ll build larger ones. And there I’ll store all my grain and all my goods. And I’ll say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years. Relax, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said to him, Fool, this night your soul is required of you. The things that you have prepared, whose will they be? So it is one who lays up treasure for himself and who is not rich toward God. So I think you have here in a situation, it’s very similar to our present setting. In fact, it’s almost uncanny how… Clearly, it describes our present situation. You’re able to amass a significant amount of wealth that’s going to see you through the next 15 to 20 years without needing to work. That’s what he does. He has a very productive and lucrative career. So he’s able to set aside a massive amount of financial provision for his latter years. All of his grain and his goods. In fact, he’d done so well that he needed larger barns to hold all that he had produced. Now, in light of how wealthy he had become, he decided to retire. And he said, this is how he decided to retire. I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years. Relax, eat, drink, and be merry. But God’s response to such an attitude towards his wealth was, Fool, your soul is required of you and these things that you have prepared, whose will they be? So here you had a man who had done really well in life, amassed great wealth over his lifetime, chose to live off that wealth in relaxation and personal enjoyment for the rest of his days. But he isn’t even one day into his retirement and he dies. He dies and stands before God, having wasted his life. And I recently read an article about a man who had just come into retirement at age 65. And there’s no indication in the article that he was a believer or an unbeliever. It just didn’t say. But he had just come into retirement at age 65 and he died two weeks later. And you just think, boy, if you’re living and you’re putting all you have and all your hope into that retirement years, you could die just days after your retirement.
Well, that’s what happened to this man. He was exceedingly rich in this life, but he wasn’t rich towards God, which I take to mean he didn’t know God in a saving relationship. I think that’s clear. And therefore, his life didn’t reflect a God-centered, others-focused view of his wealth. It was a self-centered view of his wealth. God is not pleased with this man’s self-centered, self-indulgent attitude towards his wealth and the idea of him spending his remaining years in self-serving ease. And I think believers in the Lord Jesus need to heed this warning in this passage. And examine themselves to see where we’ve absorbed this kind of view towards retirement rather than a biblical view towards retirement. So, with that kind of warning from Scripture, I want to ask you now a more positive question, Cliff. What are some ways that retired Christians can spend their retirement in a way that glorifies God, makes the most of their time, and stewards their talents well? Because you mentioned that retirement, per se, is not wrong or bad. In fact, it’s a biblical category. But if we are able to save for the future, like we’re able to, how should a person, how should a Christian, if they’re able to do that, what should they do with their retirement?
Cliff: Yeah, good question. And it’s a good contrast, too, because there’s typical traditional American retirement, which is utterly self-centered and self-serving, versus biblical retirement. There are ways to be a good steward of your resources, monetary, and also giftedness and experience you have as a Christian looking forward to retirement. Here’s a practical one, Proverbs 13:22. A good man leaves an inheritance for his children’s children. But a sinner’s wealth is stored up for the righteous. So that first part of the phrase there, a good man, that’s a godly man, a wise man, a person living in light of biblical truth, pleases God, honors God in his living and in his decisions. It doesn’t mean a sinless person. It’s somebody who pleases God.
So a godly person leaves an inheritance for his children’s children. The only way to do that is to plan ahead. That’s your retirement. So having godly grandparents and godly parents who have wealth. By the way, the scripture is clear that it is God who gives the power to make wealth anyway and blesses certain people more than others. And a godly person, regarding their retirement, they’re going to think of how they can bless their children and invest it in their children. And bless their grandchildren and practically set aside for them. We are blessed, my wife and I, to have godly, my wife has godly parents. And they have been for a long time. So when we got married, they were already blessing us. They had more money than we did and they helped us get started. Then we went into the ministry immediately into nonprofit work. And they have supported us throughout our non-profit ministries and churches. And Christian schools for 30 years and have always been very generous and supportive. And then when our kids came along, they were very generous here, just like Proverbs 13 says. And they began to bless their children’s children by helping us with our four kids and college and those kinds of things. So what a tremendous blessing they have been. And that honors God, that pleases Him.
So that’s one practical way. Also, regarding retirement, you can just always be giving to the church, the church of God. Investing in the kingdom with resources. Churches are always in need, it seems, because they are a non-profit. And they’re trusting God with their resources all the time. And we are blessed time and time again by faithful senior saints. God is blessed and they invest in the church in so many different ways. I think about the current situation that you and I are in where we’re at a church. And we’ve been able to do some remodeling, but not because we raised the money or had a campaign or were pleading with the people. It’s trying to save up or anything like that. It’s simply we were able to do work around the facility because those who came before us who were godly literally had given back to their church. Or some people even put money in their wills and dedicating it to the church. What a blessing that is. And a wonderful stewardship. And then also we’ve seen many of our saints, senior saints, retired saints, or as they’re getting older and they have means, investing in biblical missions around the world. To missions. What a worthy cause. Here for us, it’s the missions that we’re doing in India for pastors and Honduras training pastors. Also, there’s a lot of good biblical foundations that support biblical causes. And they need money and that’s always a good place to give as well. And God is pleased by those investments.
Derek: Yeah. So, I want to follow up with this question too because I know we want to keep things balanced. We’ve already addressed part of this, but I want to ask it again. So, when we’re talking about… When we’re talking about retirement and where we’re trying to understand it biblically, does this mean that believers can’t use some of their time in their later years to do some traveling and some enjoyable things with their spouse or tone down the intensity of their schedules as they get older?
Cliff: I am so glad you asked that question, Derek, because I just anticipated it and thought… You know, some people listening to us, they’re going to walk away thinking, Are you saying we can’t have any fun? That is not what we are saying. With this question… I just think of the book you wrote on Solomon’s… Great Commission, right out of the book of Ecclesiastes. The whole theology of that is God has given us all things to enjoy and to be blessed by. And to rejoice and celebrate and live in light of the fruits that you were able to work hard for because that’s a gift from God.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: So, absolutely. If God gives you good health and the means and you have worked hard and labored and you’re like the Levites who are transitioning out of that full-time rigorous occupation at age 50, if they’ve been able to save up money today, then yes, you can enjoy traveling to see your children who’ve moved out of the area. Go see your grandchildren. Go visit other believers. Go whatever it is and enjoy that. That’s definitely a responsible stewardship before God. He wants us to enjoy our labors. And I also need to make a comment because not everybody who works hard their whole life is able to save up a lot of retirement money.
Derek: That’s true.
Cliff: They don’t live on Easy Street. As a matter of fact, there’s a lot of people who may very well not have enough money when they retire to continue to live and survive, especially where you and I live in probably one of the most expensive areas here in America, literally.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: And there’s just a lot of folks that don’t make enough money. That’s why I think the Bible is sufficient. 1 Timothy 5 where it’s talking about those when they get older, Christian parents, when they get older, at some point they won’t be able to work and bring in an income anymore. And it says the children and the grandchildren, there’s an onus on them to provide for their elderly parents.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: We need to do that. So if you can’t live off retirement, then first your family, your immediate family needs to help you. And then if they need help, then your church needs to help you. Another thing that’s wrong with the American understanding of retirement, it’s first and foremost, many times looking to the government to help you.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: That is totally unbiblical.
Derek: Right. Well, I want to let…
Cliff: Oh, one last comment.
Derek: Sorry. Go ahead.
Cliff: Be a good steward. As a matter of fact, some of the best trips we have ever taken, my wife and I, are trips we couldn’t afford. So our parents took us to Disney World or whatever it was.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: So that’s a blessing.
Derek: Yeah. I can attest to both my parents and Amy’s parents have been incredibly generous with us. And because they were wise stewards in their retirement years. And so we’ve been immensely blessed like you have as well. So, and I think in those cases, we want to thank those people. We want to encourage them that they are stewarding their God-given resource well. And I think those in retirement who are doing that should be encouraged. I want to end with this passage because Paul talks about this temptation of growing weary and well-doing. So it’s Galatians 6, 7 through 10. And it says, do not to be deceived because God is not be mocked. For whatever one sows, this will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from his flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the spirit will from the spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in doing good, for in due season we will reap if we do not give up. So then when we have opportunity let us do good to everyone and especially to those in the household of the faith. So Paul starts this passage by warning the Galatians not to be deceived because God will not be mocked and that means, and that means that God has built in the universe the principles of sowing and reaping. You sow, you will reap. You reap what you sow.
And that’s a guarantee. And in this case, he says, if you reap to the flesh, you’ll, if you sow to the flesh, rather, you reap corruption. If you sow to the spirit, you’ll reap eternal life. And this means that if your life is characterized by sowing to the flesh, you’ll, you need to be very concerned about whether or not you’re a Christian. Because a life characterized by sowing to the flesh will end in corruption, which is the opposite in this text of eternal life. So corruption here is eternal judgment. Paul encourages Galatians, the Galatians to press on and not grow weary in doing good because they will eventually reap eternal life if they don’t give up. So practically, this means he tells you what this means. He says, as we have an opportunity, let us do good to everyone, especially to those who are the household of faith. And this goes back to what you said. We don’t, we shouldn’t draw such a sharp distinction between work that we do for a living and work that we do in service to God and to others. Paul says here, you don’t grow weary doing good. And how do you make sure that that happens as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone. And I just, I wanted to close with this text for just three quick reasons.
The first is that I want to ask, I want us to ask what else is a selfish, self-focused, recreation-filled retirement, but sowing to the flesh. So basically what our culture is encouraging us to do is to end our last few years of our life, just straight sowing to the flesh. And we need to be aware of that. We can’t just let that be something we absorb without critically thinking about it biblically. So the warning to us is to be careful that we don’t fall into the trap of sowing to the flesh in our latter years. Second, Paul encourages us to not grow weary in doing good, which is a temptation. All of us, I think, will be, it will be a temptation for many of us or all of us in our latter years, in our retirement years, to grow weary or to even look towards retirement as a time when we can, ah, just take a break from doing good. And Paul says, don’t let that temptation overtake you. Don’t grow weary in doing good. Because we could say, I’ve worked hard, life’s been tough, I finally have a chance for some rest and relaxation. And what you pointed out earlier is we’re not saying that you can’t have rest and relaxation, but that’s not to be the whole of our life. And Paul doesn’t want us to become weary in doing good. And so, and then finally, he mentions that he, he gets really practical and he tells us what our retirement year should look like, something that you’ve already said. He says it in summary form here, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially those who are in the household of faith. And so here, Paul even emphasizes, in your retirement years, so to speak, consider your service to the church, but also considering your service to all people and to make the most of that time. So don’t grow weary in doing good. Keep sowing to the Spirit. And keep doing good to those who are both inside and outside the church. So I’m going to end with that. Any final thoughts, Cliff?
Cliff: Yeah, you’ve encouraged us to think through our theology, our systematic theology of retirement. And part of that is thinking through our systematic theology of the future on a personal level.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: Because we were thinking about the future. Just a couple of thoughts. So one is just this one verse from James chapter four, talking to Christians. You do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears a little while and then vanishes away. So, uh, it’s arrogant. Actually, he even uses the word, I think here, wicked. And arrogant for us to think about what I’m going to be doing five years from now.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: That’s arrogant. That’s sinful.
Derek: Yes.
Cliff: No, I’m here right now. I could be, the Lord could take me home tomorrow and I just need to be a good steward today.
Derek: Yeah. Right.
Cliff: Focus on today and being a good steward. When it does come to the future. Jesus told us in Matthew 6, 19, do not store up for yourselves treasures here on earth for your future retirement, but rather this is a command store up for yourselves treasures in heaven. So we do live in light of the future, but it’s not living light in light of the future of earthly retirement.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: It’s we’re living in light of the future eternity and eternity because Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:10, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may be recompensed or paid back for his deeds done in the body according to what we have done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10. So yes, we do need to live in light of the future, but from a Christian point of view, it’s more so eternity than retirement.
Derek: Yeah. Well, excellent. Thank you, brother. That was just a great conversation.
Cliff: Thanks, Derek. It was actually particularly exciting to be a part of podcast number two.
Derek: Well, thank you. Thank you for tuning into the with all wisdom podcast, where we are applying biblical truth to your everyday life. Again, we encourage you to check out withallwisdom.org for a large and growing collection of resources to help you grow in Christ centered spiritual maturity. We’ll see you next time.
