In this two-part podcast, pastors Derek Brown and Cliff McManis examine Romans 13:1-7 in order to help listeners understand the role of government and how Christians should respond to national and local governing authorities.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to With All Wisdom, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown and I’m here today with Cliff McManis, and we are both pastors and elders at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California, and professors at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And today we want to continue our discussion of a Christian’s view of the government. But before we do, I want to point your attention to withallwisdom.org, where you will find a large and growing collection of resources on various theological, cultural, and practical topics that are all rooted in God’s Word and aimed to help you make genuine progress in your walk with the Lord. Today we want to talk about specific governing authorities and our attitude that we should have toward those governing authorities, and specifically the police. And so I just want to hand it right over to you, Cliff, today, so that you can talk to us about how Christians should think about and their attitude towards these governing authorities, with an emphasis on the police.
Cliff: Yes. We’re picking up on our episode from last time on Romans 13. You and I, Derek, as pastors, Bible teachers, and as Christians, over all these episodes, a common theme of our great concern is helping fellow believers develop a comprehensive Christian worldview. Right? And hopefully folks have listened enough to our episodes to know what we’re talking about when we’re talking about a worldview—a comprehensive paradigm by which to view all of reality from God’s point of view, and not just in an isolated manner that God only cares about. Sundays are the religious things in our life. God cares about everything, right? His Bible speaks to everything. His Bible is sufficient on all things, and we are confident that as we live life, we can have a godly perspective on every area of life. And that would include the government, and how you view government as Christians. And that’s really Paul’s point of view in Romans 13— trying to help Christians develop a complete Christian worldview regarding governing authorities. And we showed how he laid that down. And there’s a balance there. As we develop our Christian worldview, it’s always important, no matter what the topic is. You can go to extremes if you take a Bible verse out of context and you don’t consult other verses. The whole counsel of God. You can have an unbalanced view even though that verse is in the Bible, right? You can have a stilted view. That’s detrimental. That’s why we need the whole counsel of God. We need all of God’s truth all over the Bible to inform us on any given issue, so that we’re not lopsided in our thinking or become a legalist. That’s the problem with being a legalist, is you’re only highlighting certain verses—the ones you like. And you’re neglecting the other ones to give a counterbalance to that and to help us avoid the extremes. So one of the themes we were highlighting last time in Romans 13:1-7 was, Christians need to submit to government, because it’s pretty emphatic. Every person—that’s without exception—is to be in subjection or to be submissive to the governing authorities. And that sounds like almost without qualification there. But you did a good job of pointing out that verse three does give us qualifications for that. It’s legitimate governing authorities doing the job God called them to do, which was protect the innocent and the good and to punish evil. So that’s who we’re supposed to be submissive to—governing authorities. But we were challenged with—and I thought that was a great way you put it—that Covid was a good litmus test for the Christian world on how we understand and, more importantly, apply Romans 13:1-7. And we learned a lot of new stuff. We heard high profile evangelical Christian leaders saying stuff about Romans 13 that surprised us, right? Like, wow, I didn’t know he would have landed on this side of this argument. Never knew that. I’ve heard this Bible teacher for 30 years. So the Covid challenge really did expose a lot of the practical implications of how we apply the truth of Romans 13.
So our goal is to help us understand the full counsel of God on any given matter and avoid the extremes. And last time, we emphasized avoiding the extreme of this idea that Christians had, and still have, that we obey the government at all times, under all conditions, no matter what the circumstances are, without exception. Right? And that is not true. That’s not a balanced perspective. There are exceptions to just about every rule, right? So we don’t want to be that extreme. And, you know, we didn’t even refer to Jesus last episode where he gave the beautiful balance in Matthew 22:21 and Mark 12, where in government he said, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that belong to God. So upfront Jesus was saying, there’s a balance here. It’s not one or the other. It’s both. And it’s not like government is equal, in terms of power and authority, as God. God is above all; he’s completely sovereign. The government is under God, right? So they aren’t equals. But the government has limited authority and it needs to stay in its proper lane. And Christians need to understand what that is. So there’s that one extreme of, we don’t just believe, we submit to the government in all things because they can do bad things. But the other extreme is we need to honor the government, honor governing authorities, and submit to them.
But aren’t there times where should we submit to even evil governments? And you can just hear, you know, questions, and people saying, does this apply to Hitler? Especially the Jews in Germany at the time—were they just supposed to submit to everything Hitler dictated and demanded? Is that what this means? And of course, we would say no, because he wasn’t doing good. He was doing evil, right? He was perverting and distorting and abusing the authority that God gave him. So we’ve got to avoid that extreme as well. This doesn’t mean just submit to those who are evil. And as a reaction, there are some Christians who hold the view I alluded to this last time, that there are people who call themselves Christians who hold kind of an anarchy view of government. We don’t need government. But that view flies in the face of what Paul says here because he says all authority has been established by God, and laid down by God. So you can’t be a Christian and be an anarchist. It’s just not possible. As a matter of fact, if you call yourself a Christian and you say you’re an anarchist or believe in anarchy, you don’t even understand how the world operates from God’s point of view, because the reality is that the way God made humanity, the human race, the life in which we live, its hierarchical structure—that’s the very framework of how we live, is hierarchy. And basically it’s everything—all human relations, institutions, interactions, enterprise—is based on authority and submission at every level.
Derek: It can’t function otherwise. You have to have a chain of command. You have to have orders that are followed and structures and if a person calls themselves a Christian anarchist and they don’t have any area where they want to submit to the government, I just wonder about their submission to God, the greatest authority, if they’re not willing to submit to lesser authorities.
Cliff: Exactly. Well, that’s the paradigm by which everything else flows. Everything in human society is based on authority and submission. And it starts with God. He is the authority and all of creation is submissive to him. And especially, like you said, if you’re a Christian. Your greatest confession is that Jesus is Lord. That means Jesus is the sovereign one. Every knee will bow to Jesus Christ, who is Lord and God is Lord. So that’s where it starts. Your personal devotion to God is the very picture of authority and submission, and that is actually replicated all throughout human society, from the highest level of God over humanity, but also government. Across the globe and then down to the most personal and intimate level in the family. Or parents. They’re the authority and the children are to be submissive. The relationship between husband and wife. He’s the head of the home, the leader of the home, and the authority in the home. And the wife is to be the submissive one. Right? So this is at every level.
Derek: I was just going to say, and, you know, some people scoff these days at the idea that—at the idea of submission to authority. And actually, when authority is appropriately used, it blesses people, blesses children, blesses citizens of a nation, and blesses wives. And David even mentions this in the Old Testament where he says, when a king rules wisely, it’s like dew upon the grass. It’s like this pleasant thing for the people when he rules with the wisdom of God and he rules his people wisely. It’s a blessing.
Cliff: It is. And that was God’s intention. All authority came from God. All authorities were established by God, and all authority that comes from God is intended to bless humanity. To protect humanity. So authority, properly used and wielded, is a protection. That’s how God intends it. So it provides protection, it provides safety, and it provides order as opposed to chaos. God is a God of order, not chaos. Satan is a chaotic being. He is diabolical. That’s his name. He’s a destroyer and diabolical. He’s the exact opposite of order.
Derek: That’s a really good point.
Cliff: And therefore, he’s an anarchist. And the spirit of anarchy comes from Satan himself. Anarchy is lawlessness. That’s a synonym for it. If you think about, well, what is God? God is a God of law and order. How has God revealed himself to humanity? Well, one of the ways he did that was through law. He gave 615 laws to Moses and his people and a law from God. What is that? That’s a tangible manifestation of the very character of God. It tells us what God is like, what he likes, what he hates, what he will punish, and how he is holy. His law defines who he is. So that’s why God is a God of law and of order. Satan hates all of that. So he’s absolutely opposed to law and order and an anarchist. So that’s just a good thing to add to your Christian worldview. So this idea of anarchy or, the bumper sticker that says “question authority”—people have that bumper sticker.
Derek: It’s an ironic bumper sticker because basically it’s saying question authority, except for the authority of that bumper sticker telling you to question authority.
Cliff: It’s self-defeating.
Derek: It is.
Cliff: Contradictory.
Derek: Self-contradictory.
Cliff: And at the same time, it is the exact opposite of the Christian worldview. You know, people think it’s cute or they like it or some people actually believe that that’s how we should live life. Question authority. It’s very telling, actually. In two words, it’s very telling of where your heart is. If you live by that principle of “question authority,” that means I willingly live in defiance of what Romans 13 says, which recognizes that all authority was given by God for our good.
Derek: Yeah. For our blessing. Yep, yep.
Cliff: So if you’re a Christian and you have that bumper sticker, go take it off immediately, because Romans 13 says submit to authority or welcome authority. And that again, that’s authority that’s not abused or twisted. And that’s another important point—all authority does come from God, but all authority that does come from God that’s wielded by humans can be perverted and distorted and abused. But that’s not God’s intent. And we can’t blame God for man’s sinfulness. So you’ve got an abusive father. He is the authority in that home. And he got that authority from God. But if he abuses that authority, that’s not God’s fault. And that’s not what God wants, right? If he’s being sinful. And that’s true in any area. If you’ve got corrupt, abusive politicians, they got that authority from God. But God didn’t intend them or want them to abuse their authority. They’re sinful for doing that. They will be held accountable for doing that. Sometimes God will reveal his wrath towards them for doing that as a matter of a higher level of accountability. For to him who has been trusted much, much will be required. So authority figures, they have much accountability they have to face God for. But just getting back to…I want to answer one of the questions. Paul uses these words when he’s talking about governing authorities—those who bear the sword as ministers of God. He calls them rulers, ministers and servants. Well, who are these rulers, ministers and servants that we are supposed to have respect for, that we’re supposed to honor, and that we’re supposed to submit to? Today, in this day and age, it’s going to be a little different from Paul’s day when they had, you know, like an emperor and they didn’t have a democracy like we do there in Rome. So today, Derek, how does this apply to us? Who are these rulers, ministers, and servants that we are supposed to honor and obey?
Derek: So I think you can break it down from a national to a local level. So you have federal lawmakers that determine laws for our whole nation. Then you have state level lawmakers who determine laws for the state. You have government officials at every level, so local to the federal level, to the national level. Then you have the military who have certain jurisdiction, primarily foreign, but can also have a certain jurisdiction here when it’s ordered by the president to certain domestic jurisdiction. Then you have the police who have jurisdiction over cities and towns, and then you would have a sheriff who has jurisdiction over counties. Those are just some of them. You have some more you might suggest, but those are, I think, the kind of basic ones.
Cliff: Yeah, I agree, those are the main ones that we deal with today, from presidents to governors to mayors, like all those government officials you said, and those who serve on their behalf and behalf of the law. Even the IRS would be in there. Pay your taxes, right? And that’s an extension of governing authorities. All the way down to, like you said, the local level. And then Paul defines, very simply, their authority is manifest through that they bear the sword. So that speaks of [the fact that] they have coercive power. They can force us into compliance. Rightfully so, from God’s point of view, if we don’t obey the law. And if it’s warranted and to the level of even being subjected to the death penalty, if it’s warranted. And that’s what God means here by, “they bear the sword” and they don’t bear the sword in vain. They don’t bear the sword for nothing. God has given them the sword. That can kill you, if necessary. So that’s what we mean by coercive power. And the government has been entrusted by God with coercive power. And there is something to be feared in that. He says that you should be afraid if you’re an evildoer, if you’re wicked, you break the law and you get caught and busted by the law, then you deserve what you get.
That’s basically what he’s saying, right? If you’re a law abiding citizen and you obey the law, then you don’t have anything to be afraid of, from God’s point of view, at least they shouldn’t be hounding you and chasing you, right? If you abide by the law. You should be protected by the law, so you shouldn’t have anything to fear. But I wanted to talk about a recent event that came up during the last year and a half, and it was in the midst of Covid and all kinds of crazy stuff that was going on. And that was this movement called defund the police, that is actually still alive and well here in America. June 2022. We actually have American politicians, either in office right now or running for office, and on their platform, one of their items that they are proposing or still advocating is that we need to defund the police. All police. So that rose to prominence about a year and a half ago. And a lot of politicians were jumping on board defunding the police. Immediately, when I heard that, I just thought this is from the devil himself. This is basically what they’re saying is, we need anarchy. We want lawlessness. And they were condemning government officials or police officials or even the military. Which God says, no, they’ve been given the sword on behalf of God to represent God, to bring order, and to protect the innocent. So this idea that we need to defund the police, we need to hate the police, and we need to hate the military—that is antithetical to the Christian worldview. No Christian should think that way. As a matter of fact, in light of this and also—I want to read this passage in 1 Peter 1, a parallel passage of our attitude towards government on the military and those who wield the sword. First Peter 2:13 says, submit yourself, Christian, for the Lord’s sake because you’re a Christian. In light of what God thinks, submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers. And the praise of those who do right and the punishment of evil doers. There are legitimate governing authorities who have a job of punishing evildoers. Physically, that’s what police do. And that’s why people hate them so much. Because they’re a threat, right? They’re an inhibition to doing things the way they want to do, whether it’s perpetuating crimes or those kind of things.
That’s one of the reasons why people hate cops. Because they’re criminals and they have a rebellious spirit. That’s one reason. Another reason being advocated most recently of defunding the police is that all police are abusive, right? They abuse their authority. All police are corrupt. All police are evil, which we know is not true. No, that’s overstating the case. It’s a very, very small minority of police who would fall into that category. And there are corrupt police. It’s kind of funny that a lot of these politicians who are saying the police are corrupt are corrupt politicians. Not all politicians are corrupt, right? But here’s just here’s a quote from one of the leading House of Representatives, about a year and a half ago who was just on a rant publicly and a catalyst is this whole defund the police movement. A representative from Minnesota. And she said, “We need to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department. The police department is cancer.” And then she just goes on and on. She is paid by the US taxpayers. Is she saying that she’s in utter defiance of Romans 13 and what God thinks about those who wield the sword? And it is just overtly evil, that mindset.
Derek: And incredibly naïve. To think that defunding police and removing police is going to create a better and more stable society is utterly naive in light of what we know about the wickedness of the human heart. So even people who would frame it as well, we’re going to defund the police, but we’re going to put the power into the hands of the people, and we’re going to have the community do this kind of policing and sort of thing. That is incredibly naive as well. That is not reckoning with the wickedness of man and the need in this fallen state for the government to bear the sword in order to have this coercive power to enforce what is good and to punish what is evil. And so it does. It stems from wickedness, these kinds of comments. It stems from naivety about how evil man is and what is actually needed for a stable society.
Cliff: Good point. And she’s naive about what she thinks the solution is.
Derek: Right.
Cliff: I mean, she just thinks if we get rid of police we’ll solve the problem. We’ll end racism, basically. So she’s naive about the solution. She’s also naive about the problem, because from her point of view, she’s coming from—and a lot of them do who believe in this defund the police movement—a Marxist worldview. Her diagnosis of the problem is it’s just an economic problem. It’s a socially structured, misguided problem. So if we could just restructure society, we’ll fix the problem, right? It’s an easy fix if we can just usher in Utopia with a few changes of the law, and we can fix the problem. So it’s superficial, it’s external, and she’s not even addressing it. That’s why you need a Christian worldview, because we can diagnose the problem properly from the Bible. The problem is the human heart. And here’s the biblical diagnosis that really cuts to the chase here. And that’s Jeremiah 17:9. This is the problem that we have in society. Really from God’s point of view, the heart of humanity, the heart of every human: the heart is more deceitful than all else. And it is desperately sick. Or the King James legitimately says the human heart is desperately wicked. It is desperately wicked. Who can understand it? And the Lord searches the heart. He knows the mind. He’s the only solution. And so every human being is born of this world, and evil to the core from the inside. And then they will manifest that sin at some point in the world. And as a result, God wants to restrain evil at every level. And he’s put all these things in place to try to restrain evil, including his law, government, his word, the church, the family, all these are His attempt to deter humanity so that we don’t kill ourselves and consume ourselves.
Derek: Yeah. And we’re able to say, as Christians, that the police are necessary. We are even able to say, based on what you just said about the wickedness of the human heart, we can even say that, yes, there are some evil police officers who need to be disciplined and removed from their position, and we can say both things at the same time. But we can also say that there are some really good police officers. We know a number of them personally. I had a lot of police officer friends when I was living in Kentucky. All good men seeking to do what is right. So we can say both things at the same time. And that is the freedom of the Christian worldview.
Cliff: Yeah. Amen. Which is a good segue to our next episode. We want to have a guest who’s a man of God and at the same time served in the police department for over 30 years.
Derek: Well, we’ll look forward to that. And so, thank you so much for listening today. Please check out withallwisdom.org, where you’ll find all of our written and audio resources. Until next time, keep seeking the Lord in His Word.
