In the final episode of this three-part series, pastors Derek and Cliff consider all the things that Christians shouldn’t boycott while answering several practical questions.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to With All Wisdom, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown and I am here today with Cliff McManis. As usual, it’s usually us two, and we are both pastors and elders at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California. And we also get the privilege of training pastors at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California, where we are professors of theology. And today is part three of the question of whether or not Christians should boycott. And so we’re going to get right into that in a moment. Please check out withallwisdom.org if you haven’t already. We are continuing to add resources there every week, and we trust they will be helpful as you seek to discern things in the world and try to understand life in this world according to God’s Word. So let’s get back to our topic. Where we left off was Cliff was taking us through a list of things that Scripture tells us clearly to boycott or avoid or abstain from. And so that was helpful. And we now are coming to talking about what Christians should not boycott. And I think this is an important point as well. So I want to hand it right back to you. Cliff, why don’t you tell us what Christians should not boycott?
Cliff: Yeah, this is the balance. I have nine main things. And to bridge the gap, I thought of another one that we should boycott since our last meeting together. So let me provide that one. So that would be number 14. I gave 13 in the last episode. 14. Things that Christians should boycott. And the 14th one I thought of was that the church or Christians should boycott unbiblical government, government mandates and restrictions. I mean, how could I forget that one in light of Covid?
Derek: Exactly. We’ve done a few episodes on this topic.
Cliff: So we should boycott those when they violate Scripture. So now my list of the nine things that Christians shouldn’t boycott. And I chose these because, a lot of times, Christians do boycott these. And I have experienced all of these at various churches and with Christians who are boycotting these things that I thought they shouldn’t be boycotting. And maybe at one time in my life I boycotted these things that we shouldn’t [be boycotting]. Things Christians should not boycott. Number one: we should not boycott inanimate things or objects in and of themselves. I’ll give you examples. In Luke 12:23 Jesus said, is not life more than just clothing? So he’s talking about material substance. It’s nothing. It’s not spiritual inherently. And there are many other examples in Scripture, so we shouldn’t boycott inanimate things in and of themselves. For example, a guitar—an electric guitar—which at some legalistic churches [are boycotted]. I was an elder at one of these legalistic churches where the elders (not me, but the rest of the elders) would boycott the electric guitar. It was evil, as was a set of drums. Of course, I was told that the drums were of the devil. And that’s why we didn’t have drums in our church. The drums in and of themselves. I was also told at that same church that the organ is the most heavenly instrument that was ever made. The organ was a heavenly instrument. I have such a problem with that. An organ is neither spiritual nor unspiritual.
Derek: So you’re saying drums are okay, then?
Cliff: Drums are neither spiritual nor unspiritual. I guess cymbals—loud, clashing, banging cymbals are in Psalm 150. That’s a form of a drum, is it not? Percussion?
Derek: Percussion, right there.
Cliff: Yep. There you go. So we don’t boycott inanimate things just in and of themselves. Christians, unfortunately, have attached spirituality to things that aren’t spiritual at all. They’re amoral. They’re not immoral, which would include the television. A movie theater. A deck of cards.
Derek: Yep. Wow.
Cliff: I could go on, but I won’t. How about this one? Certain buildings. Let me talk about that one. We don’t boycott buildings. For example, when we planted the church, for the first 13 years, we met in five different Seventh Day Adventist buildings on Sunday because they didn’t meet on Sunday. They met on Saturday. So I received questions over the course of 13 years and even recently. Why did you guys meet in the Seventh Day Adventist building? Isn’t that’s bad? Their theology regarding salvation is wrong and completely unbiblical. Why would you meet in their building? And there were no Seventh Day Adventists in the building when we had church. They didn’t control anything that we did. We did church normally, but for whatever reason, people just got it in their brain that you shouldn’t meet in a Seventh Day building because of their bad theology, which would mean, I guess, we shouldn’t be allowed to rent the Masonic Lodge. We had a Christian that did—a church plant friend, a Christian friend of mine just here in Redwood City—and they met in a synagogue. And in the synagogue were unbelieving Jews. They rejected Christ.
Derek: I think I’ve been to that church years and years ago. This is before I even met you.
Cliff: Oh, wow. But why is it okay to meet in a synagogue. Right? When they’re unbelievers. And that doesn’t mean all Seventh Day Adventist people are unbelievers, but what about a church plant in a bowling alley? And the bowling alley owner is a Satan worshipper? Is that okay? I mean, I know a lot of churches that use bowling alleys and strip malls for their church plant. Nobody seems to say anything. Oh, you shouldn’t do that when the owner is an atheist. An abortionist. Right? They’re attaching evil to the building itself. No, it’s just concrete and mud. So anyway, that’s why we don’t boycott inanimate things. And regarding the SDA—oh, which takes me to number two. So we don’t boycott inanimate things, and we also don’t boycott places or locations or buildings. So those are kind of similar. But I think of people questioning or criticizing us because we met in a Seventh Day Adventist building. The Apostle Paul actually would preach in unsaved places, like in synagogues filled with unbelievers. And that was his strategy. He goes into some city, and the first thing he does is he goes to a synagogue, a building where it was filled with unbelievers. They weren’t Christians. And he would preach there. Jesus did the same thing. So Jesus would routinely preach in places that were buildings housed by unbelievers. As a matter of fact, John in Revelation calls synagogues “synagogues of Satan.” So they’re literally buildings of Satan. And that’s where Jesus and Paul preached. And in the book of James, some Christians took over a synagogue and began having church there. In a synagogue that once belonged to Satan. So Paul preached in the school of Tyrannus, which is a secular building or the secular owner. And he did that for two years. Plus, he had his Bible Institute at a pagan facility. He didn’t mind.
Derek: Sweet. So I think I you’ve said this before to me personally, if you were allowed to say whatever you wanted to say, would you preach in a Mormon Church or building?
Cliff: Yeah, somebody asked me that here at our church. Would you preach at BYU? Brigham Young University? At their chapel, if they invited you? Because there’s 30,000 Mormon students there and all Mormon leadership and Mormonism—it’s a cult. It’s a false religion. They were expecting me to say “absolutely not.” I would never step foot on Brigham Young University campus. And they said, would you preach there? I said, yeah, absolutely. And they were shocked and almost had a heart attack. And I said, but under one condition: if they let me say whatever I wanted to say, absolutely. Jesus would do that. He would go anywhere. If he could say what he wanted to say. And he did say what he wanted to say, everywhere he went. So number three: we shouldn’t boycott food or meat.
Derek: Praise the Lord.
Cliff: Yeah. In and of itself, unfortunately, there are Christians who think just eating vegetables is more spiritual, and they actually think it’s unspiritual or sinful to eat meat. That is wrong. First Timothy 4:3-5. A food that God made is a gift from him. It is good. It’s blessed, especially when you are thankful for it. Acts chapter ten. Jesus told Peter, rise, kill, and eat that bacon. Good stuff. I love Acts chapter ten.
Derek: Yep. And so do my two boys.
Cliff: Number four, we shouldn’t boycott people in general. First Corinthians 5:10. Meaning just unbelievers in general. We should get to know them. Befriend them. You work at Google or Facebook or the car wash or whatever. You try to befriend all of your colleagues and fellow employees, and your boss and [whoever else]. And cultivate some kind of a relationship with them. Not boycotting them just by virtue of the fact that they don’t know Jesus.
Derek: Right, exactly.
Cliff: You have compassion and mercy for them because. Titus three says, you used to be—when you were lost—you were pathetic. And yet God showed you grace. So you need to show grace towards unbelievers.
Derek: That’s right. Titus three is a really important passage in that regard, because the reason you just had to say that point about not boycotting unbelievers in general is because some Christians do just that. And I would encourage those Christians to read Titus chapter three.
Cliff: They have an utter disdain for somebody who’s not saved. It’s like, have you forgotten what you used to be like?
Derek: Yeah. It should make you gentle, courteous, kind, hopeful. They might repent.
Cliff: That’s right. So we just shouldn’t boycott people in general because they’re not saved. And more specifically, this is the same thing, basically. Number five is, we shouldn’t boycott sinners. First Corinthians 5:10. But in Luke 15:2, Jesus associated with and even ate with sinners. And we should do that as well.
Derek: Yeah.
Cliff: Number six, we should not boycott dancing.
Derek: This wasn’t a controversial podcast until just then.
Cliff: Yeah, I got a Bible verse for it. There were actually a couple. Ecclesiastes 3:4. It’s pretty clear. There is a time for dancing.
Derek: Oh, is that in the Bible?
Cliff: Yeah, it’s in the Bible. Dancing. David danced. Miriam danced and celebrated after the death of Pharaoh in the book of Exodus. And that was okay and esteemed by God. Dancing. And again, it’s context. What kind of dancing? So there’s legitimate, and apparently there’s illegitimate kinds of dancing.
Derek: Yeah. There’s a legitimate way to dance.
Cliff: Yeah. Celebration. Celebration with the body. We should not boycott clapping in church.
Derek: I agree.
Cliff: The reason I put this is because I was an elder at a church that boycotted clapping. That was a rule. You couldn’t clap in church.
Derek: Seriously?
Cliff: Yeah, you couldn’t clap, even though Psalms says clap your hands. Because it was violating 1 Corinthians 14, where it says do all things decently and in order, and therefore clapping was not being decent or orderly, even though 1 Corinthians 14 talked about saying the amen during the sermon. Or the book of Ezra. Ezra. Nehemiah. Amen. People were shouting out the “Amen” while Ezra was preaching, and that’s endorsed as a good thing. We need an amen corner in the church.
Derek: We do. And we need more of it, quite honestly.
Cliff: Yeah. We can’t be so inhibited.
Derek: Yes, I agree.
Cliff: I don’t have this one on there, but we shouldn’t boycott raising your hands in church.
Derek: True.
Cliff: I used to believe that. I used to believe we should boycott raising hands in church, because I was taught that I should. I laughed because, during my time in college, it was almost implicitly boycotted for whatever reason. And then at some point, I just, like, read the Bible and it said, raise your hands. I was like, whoa, wait a minute. In Timothy and also in the Psalms. And then Solomon was raising his hands in 1 Kings 10 as he prayed to the Lord. And Moses did the same thing as he gives his benediction. Okay, I guess you can raise your hands. Number eight, we should not boycott guns or instruments of war.
Derek: Wow. Again, controversy.
Cliff: I am not saying that war is good, right? Or killing people illegitimately is good. That is not what I’m saying. Let me clarify. This is kind of related to inanimate objects. A gun is not inherently evil, right? But it’s more than guns. We should not, as Christians, just categorically boycott guns and instruments of war, because God commanded war in the Old Testament to the Israelites many times. The church is not to embark in war as an institution. But when Jesus returns in Revelation 19, he is waging war with the sword of his mouth, literally slaughtering his enemies. And in 1 Corinthians five and six, Christians will engage in war at the end of the age or in the future, as we reign and rule with Christ.
Derek: And God has explicitly given instruments of war to the state to make sure that people do good and not evil and also to defend itself.
Cliff: Yeah, absolutely. Romans 13: the government has not been given the sword in vain. Meaning they’re supposed to wield that sword. And you do one thing with the sword. You kill evil people to protect innocent people. So God is not a pacifist. Number nine. Christians should not boycott Christian weddings.
Derek: Now there’s a reason you have to say that. Because to me, I’m like, well, of course, but there’s a reason you have to say that, because you know of some who have.
Cliff: So unfortunately, some Christian parents will boycott a prospective wedding of one of their children who wants to be engaged to someone else, and their child is a Christian, and their prospective future spouse is also a Christian. So you’ve got two Christians, a Christian young man and a Christian young woman. And the desire to be married is a good desire because that’s in the Bible. That’s 1 Corinthians seven. That’s Genesis 2:24. That’s a good desire—to be married. It’s a good thing to find a wife, says Proverbs. And you’ll get favor from the Lord. So to have a desire to be married after God’s pattern of one man, one woman for life—that is a good thing. And that should be celebrated. And so parents should not resist the prospect of their Christian child offspring being married to another Christian. And unfortunately, a lot of Christians have false standards that they think are biblical, and they try to boycott the engagement or the wedding illegitimately. So maybe make a comment there—under what conditions— Derek, because you work with a lot of young people and do weddings—what are the prerequisites and requirements for a Christian person that wants to get married?
Derek: Very clear. Scripture is clear. You’re free to marry whomever you wish, only in the Lord. So they have to be a Christian. So long as they’re a Christian, you can marry them.
Cliff: That’s whoever you wish. As long as they’re a Christian. And it’s after a biblical pattern of marriage. So you’re not supposed to marry an unbeliever if you’re a Christian, right? So we would boycott that wedding and try to shut that down.
Derek: And I think, yeah, you definitely have precedent to do that. [You have] biblical warrant to boycott a wedding of a child who wants to marry an unbeliever. Yeah, yeah.
Cliff: But a Christian man and Christian woman. That’s a good desire. We should cultivate that. We should celebrate that. And it doesn’t matter what—the parents shouldn’t try to boycott it or shut it down. If there’s a difference in race or ethnicity. Or if they don’t like the occupation of the other spouse, because they’ve made artificial demands. So there’s just great freedom. And that’s Genesis two. It says, yeah, you honor your parents, but the man is to leave his parents and cleave to his wife. That means that the son that wants to get married has some say.
Derek: Yeah, that’s right.
Cliff: He has some say in this. And parents shouldn’t undermine that. But that happens too frequently, sadly. And we have to intervene at times. That is not to say that we have intervened, Derek, you and I, at times where young people at our church were going to get married. And we thought maybe—and the parents were opposed to it—well, you need to communicate and talk to your parents. And then we listen and then they tell us what the parents’ objections are. And sometimes we’re like, oh yeah, I’m a parent. I can understand why they’re having reservations about that. So you need to tend to that. And sometimes the parents have reservations because they think it’s going too fast. And we have counseled young people with, you know what, slow down. Slow down. You don’t need to be married three months from now. Why can’t you wait a year? You haven’t known each other long enough anyway, right? Then maybe you can win your parents over. And time and time again, we have seen the young couple wait, be patient, and win their parents over.
Derek: They win their parents over. And then that wedding day is just—you can see the Lord has really blessed that wedding day because they took their time, honored their parents, and tried to do things in a way that was respectful and listening. And we’ve seen the Lord bless that time and again.
Cliff: I was telling you, Derek, remember when I was saying that according to the Mishnah—this Jewish teacher that I listened to, and he’s not a Christian. He’s a Jewish scholar of the conservative ilk. And he has a couple of rabbis in his class that chime in with him. Official rabbis who know a lot about the Mishnah, an Old Testament rabbinic law, and that kind of stuff. And they were saying that, contrary to what a lot of people believe, that the Mishnah does not endorse arranged weddings. And they went on to give the exposition of Genesis two—that the actual, official view is the parents actually have no say in the wedding. It’s whatever the children decide. So if two Jewish children decide we want to get married, the parents can’t stop it. And I was like, whoa, I’d never heard that before. But apparently, that’s the traditional view. And since we’re talking about weddings, I just wanted to throw this out there. Derek, what authority does the church, the local church, have over weddings and marriages? What authority does the local church have over weddings and marriages? And to the surprise of many Christians, probably my answer is, we have no authority. The local church has no authority over official weddings, legal weddings, and marriages. Right? We have their spiritual and theological authority that comes from the Bible—to define what a marriage is, right? But you and I, we can’t just go out and marry a couple at our church, right? We don’t have the authority to do that. Right? The authority to actually conduct a wedding or a marriage that goes on the books legally is from the state. Right? That’s Romans 13. Either the state of California or federal law. That’s why in the Bible, in the New Testament, nowhere does it say pastors should be doing weddings.
Derek: It’s not in our job description.
Cliff: It is not in our job description. We do weddings, but it’s not in our job description. And I don’t even have the authority to marry people.
Derek: And it’s precisely why we say something like, at the end, by the authority vested in me by the state of California, we marry them. We can’t just go out in some place and marry them. They need to get a marriage license. It needs to be signed. And there needs to be an official way that it’s done.
Cliff: Yeah. And the state of California doesn’t just vest pastors to do it. You can be anybody and do a wedding legally in California, if they vest you with the power. And with that, I just have a couple—oh, one more. And then I want to ask you some questions in our remaining ten minutes, Derek. Practical questions. This isn’t in my official list of nine things that Christians shouldn’t boycott, but it’s an extracurricular one for those who care. I think we should not boycott the NIV Bible.
Derek: Wow. Yeah.
Cliff: You know, I’ve said things like that in my classes and I’ve said the NIV gets it right a lot of the time. It’s a good translation. You can read it and you can grow from it. And I think if you can study your Greek and Hebrew, you shouldn’t be afraid of the NIV. Should you boycott The Message? That’s a different podcast. That is a different podcast.
Derek: Okay. I’m with you on that. I’m with you on the NIV one. That’s good.
Cliff: Okay. So Derek, I had some spontaneous questions and I was just curious, as a pastor, how would you answer these? Because sometimes I get these questions and I initially don’t know how to answer them, because they’re not easy questions. So let me throw some at you and just see what you think, or what your take is. Question number one. Do I go to a Billy Graham crusade (assuming that Billy Graham was still alive)—and I like Billy Graham, or I did—but do I go to a Billy Graham crusade when he has a Roman Catholic priest on the podium with him, or Robert Schuller during the evangelistic crusade?
Derek: I would say no, you wouldn’t. I would go if it was just Billy Graham. But I would say no, you wouldn’t go if he has those on the platform with him. Because by doing that, I think Billy Graham is endorsing their view of the gospel, and their understanding of the Bible. And basically saying to other Christians that are there, and unbelievers, that what they teach and believe is the same as what I teach and believe, and therefore I’m endorsing it by having them there on the platform and on the venue. And so I would say, no, you can’t go.
Cliff: Because it is literally promoting and sanctioning Roman Catholic theology, which is completely unbiblical, right? Or a false teacher like Robert Schuller.
Derek: At that point, there needs to be a very sharp and clear difference between what the gospel that Billy Graham would preach—because I’ve heard him preach the gospel and he preaches the gospel. But just to be clear, there always needs to be a very sharp and clear distinction between the biblical gospel and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. And there can be no tolerance whatsoever in a formal capacity like that for the Roman Catholic version of the gospel.
Cliff: Yeah. You sound a little a little bit like Martin Lloyd-Jones to me. Because that’s what Martin Lloyd-Jones actually said. He boycotted a Billy Graham crusade in his day when he was invited to attend. But I think you’re right. And what’s ironic is that Billy Graham, he was only a one trick pony. He was all about the gospel. And ironically, having a Catholic there, or a guy like Robert Schuller—they don’t even believe the same gospel, right? That’s the irony. We’re here for the gospel tonight, and here are two guys who don’t even agree with it. It’s like, why are you doing that anyway? Okay, next one. Do I go to my older cousin’s Thanksgiving dinner? And he is hosting at his house this year the Thanksgiving dinner for all the immediate relatives. And he’s gay, and he’s going to have his gay boyfriend or husband there at the Thanksgiving dinner. I’ve had a lot of people at church for years ask me similar questions.
Derek: I guess my answer would be, at this point, because it’s not a church or religious or spiritual setting—it is a meal with family. I don’t think by attending that meal I am condoning their relationship. Therefore, I’d say I wouldn’t find it necessary to boycott. It’s not an endorsing of the relationship of the so-called marriage.
Cliff: Yeah. I totally agree. I think this would be similar to what Jesus did. He’d go to dinner at Matthew and Levi’s house. And he’d have all of his compromised friends there. And Jesus had no problem. He went to dinner. He did that with Zacchaeus. So I agree with you. Having the relative who’s gay or married, and then he wants to stay at my house and sleep in one of our bedrooms with his boyfriend in the same room?
Derek: Absolutely not. And I was just about to say that. Yeah, in that case, absolutely not.
Cliff: I mean, you can sleep in different rooms or go get a hotel, right? Absolutely not. So that’s why these are nuanced. And you’ve got to think through the context and the scenario. Next one: I got this one at church from one of our members. Should I let my seven-year-old daughter play with and be friends with the next-door neighbor girl who’s seven years old? She’s a Mormon. So do I let my Christian daughter play with the Mormon girl across the street?
Derek: I say, yes, generally speaking. But then I also would say that she can’t just go and do everything, anywhere, at any time with that little girl. Because it’s possible that there might be some overlap with religious things, like teaching and so on. So it’s not endorsing every which way she could play with her or spend time with her. But generally speaking, yes, going over to her house and playing. And I’m going to have a relationship with the parents and all that stuff.
Cliff: I’m glad you said that because that’s what I told her. I said, yeah, you should let your kid play with the Mormon little girl. It’s in your kind of domain and jurisdiction. You can see what’s going on. You control where they play, the environment, or whatever. And seven-year-olds are not interested in theology. Taking it another step here, because I got this question as well. So do I let my seven-year-old daughter go to the neighbor’s birthday party, the Mormon girl’s birthday party, where most of the kids who are invited to the party are Mormons because they’re from the Mormon church? During the day for two hours? Do I let my daughter go to that Mormon birthday party?
Derek: Why not? Sure.
Cliff: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Derek: It’s a birthday party.
Cliff: Yep. I got this question, too. This is a real question. Do I go to the ordination ceremony at the Mormon church of my next door neighbor, who’s a friend of mine, who’s a Mormon? She invited me to her church to go to the ordination of her 12-year-old son, who was going to be ordained as an elder or deacon or whatever it is in the Mormon church.
Derek: Absolutely not.
Cliff: Yeah, I said the same thing. It’s endorsing the Mormon.
Derek: Why? By going you’re endorsing the Mormon religion, you’re endorsing that he actually is becoming an elder, that this is a valid ceremony, and that this is a valid practice of Christianity, which it is not.
Cliff: So they’re doing it in the name of Jesus.
Derek: Yeah. So I say, absolutely not.
Cliff: This is good. So far I feel like I gave good counsel and I didn’t even ask you yet. And we’re elders at the same church. We should probably be on the same page about stuff we’re telling people.
Derek: Probably.
Cliff: Okay, a couple more. Oh, should I go to a wedding of a Christian who’s marrying a non-Christian?
Derek: No.
Cliff: No. Yeah. We talked a little bit about that earlier. And then the closing questions here would be, should I go to a wedding of a gay couple?
Derek: No.
Cliff: Should I send them a wedding gift?
Derek: No.
Cliff: Okay. And then here’s my last question. Should I boycott Alistair Begg?
Derek: Should you boycott Alistair Begg? As in, avoid him, abstain from his teaching?
Cliff: If I found it highly offensive, because I know a lot of Christians like this—I’m never listening to Alistair Begg again. I’ve actually heard a lot of Christians say that. Is that what we do? Is that proper? That’s a form of boycotting. So what do we do now?
Derek: Well, I think that it’s a bit complex because, as of our latest podcast on this issue, he had tripled down his position, which gives me concern about where he’s at right now and about his church and his leadership at that church. So I don’t think I could say, with absolute honesty. But I would probably say if you’re going to continue to listen to Alistair Begg, that you need to listen with some real discernment from this point on. That’s how I would counsel somebody.
Cliff: No, that’s good counsel. And I think that’s a personal decision, frankly. Do I think Alistair Begg’s a Christian? Yeah. But I think it’s a personal choice. I’d say every any Christian is free. They have the freedom to not listen to Alistair Begg the rest of their life. That’s their choice, right? That’s fine. Whether you can make that a mandate for every other Christian—I don’t know about that. And the verdict is not completely over and out yet, because who knows, he may come back and retract his statements in six months or a year. Maybe he changes his mind, right? Or maybe he goes the other direction, hunkers down even more, which is revealing. That’s a whole different conversation. So let’s just give it time and see. There you go.
Derek: Well, good. So did I do all right?
Cliff: You did excellent.
Derek: That’s encouraging. Well, we hope this has been helpful for you. As we’ve walked through this issue of Christians and boycotting, we’ve answered or we’ve dealt with a lot of questions, hopefully giving you some helpful answers and giving you some framework to think through these things on your own. We encourage you to check out withallwisdom.org, where you will find our podcasts or videos and all of our written resources. And until next time, keep seeking the Lord and His Word.
