In this second episode of a three-part series, Pastors Derek and Cliff ask whether war is always evil while discussing if pacifism is a biblically warranted position.
Transcript
Derek: Welcome to the With All Wisdom podcast, where we are applying biblical truth to everyday life. My name is Derek Brown and I’m here today with Cliff McManis. We are both pastors and elders at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California, and professors of theology at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And today we are on part two of the topic of War and the Christian. And today we want to ask specifically, is war always evil? But before we get to our topic, we want to encourage you to check out withallwisdom.org, where you will find a large and growing collection of resources. We have articles, we have books, we have podcasts, and we now have videos that are all rooted in God’s Word, and they all cover a variety of important theological, social, and practical topics that aim to help you grow in your walk with the Lord. Now let’s pick up our topic from last time, Cliff. We want to ask, is war always evil? And I asked it that way for a specific reason, because that seems to be among some Christians to be the default—that it is always evil, and maybe even among some non-Christians, maybe a lot of people just assume that it is, just is without a lot of thought, or without a lot of reflection. It’s just, war is evil, man. How could it not be? There’s bloodshed and there’s widows and orphans made through war and societies devastated and money spent on the military machine that could be spent elsewhere and just on and on. Like, how could it not be evil? And so we want to actually counter that assumption by going to Scripture and considering all that Scripture has to say. And hopefully it’ll be clear at the end that we do not believe that war is always evil. But I get ahead of myself. Cliff, how would you like to kick this off when I asked you the question, is war always evil?
Cliff: Yeah, this was a complimentary question. The last question you asked me was, why does war exist? I thought of another very important reason that I didn’t say when you asked me that question earlier. So I need to answer that to go on to this next question you’re speaking about—is war evil? Because we didn’t say that war exists because of Satan, but I think that’s a reality. War exists because of the reality of Satan. He’s involved, especially in evil wars and Satan’s influence over evil rulers, whether it’s Hitler or the Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar or take your pick. Stalin. Putin. There is an evil influence from Satan. Scripture is clear about that. As a matter of fact, God calls Satan in the Bible the destroyer. So Satan is involved in war. As a matter of fact, Revelation 12 says, in verse seven, and war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought with the dragon. Who’s the dragon? That’s Satan. And the dragon and his angels—demons—fought with the holy angels. There’s war. So, the only war isn’t just going on here on Earth. We’ve got two famous wars going on right now, and we’ve got war going on continually in heaven. It’s a real war. It’s to the death.
And then Satan wants to bring that down here on earth. So that was part of the answer of why does war continue to exist on Earth? And there’s definitely a Satanic influence. Which takes us to your last question that you just asked here. Is war always evil? I think we laid the foundation for that. And I would just say no, categorically. War is not always evil, or not every war is evil, right? Contrary to what Pope Francis, the current Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, literally [said] just this last week. And major headlines pleading for a ceasefire in the Ukraine-Russia War. Actually, he wants Ukraine to raise the white flag and surrender. And then also he’s demanding a ceasefire with Israel and Hamas. And he gave a little speech. I don’t know if it was in Latin or not, but it was translated into English. And his last sentence is, no good thing can come from this war. And I’m thinking—the Israel-Hamas war. No good thing can come from this war. And I’m thinking, yeah there is. If Israel slaughters as many of the Hamas terrorists [as they can], that’s a good thing. So that is a good thing that needs to happen.
Derek: That is restraining evil and protecting people.
Cliff: It’s protecting people.
Derek: Could you say that’s an act of loving one’s neighbor?
Cliff: Yeah, I would say so. And that’s a pretty radical statement on your part. So war is not always evil.
Derek: I just I have to do this, Cliff. You mentioned Pope Francis, and I just wanted to say that not every pope has said such audacious things about war in the past. Can I just read you a quote from Pope John Paul II? “However paradoxical it may appear, the person who deeply desires peace rejects any kind of pacifism, which is cowardice or the simple preservation of tranquility.”
Cliff: Well, yeah. So Pope Francis—he calls himself the head of the church. He’s the vicar of Christ, which means he is Christ on the earth. He is the ultimate father. That’s the title he goes by. He demands that his followers bow to him and kiss his ring. I mean, this is all just blatant violation of Scripture. I mean, you talk about blasphemy. And plus, this current pope is like a far-left radical socialist, and basically every position he has is completely contrary to the Bible. And that includes his view on war.
Derek: Yeah. When you told me that this week, I just could not believe that he would suggest such a thing. To me, what he’s suggesting is deeply evil. That actually is deeply evil—what he’s suggesting these countries should do.
Cliff: Yeah. Going back to your question again, is war always evil? I said no. And then one of the main reasons is because God is portrayed in Scripture as a warrior and one who wages war, and God is sinless. He is holy. He is perfect. He never does anything wrong. Everything he does is right. It is warranted. It is just. God cannot sin. And yet God is a warrior and God wages war. Exodus 15:3. Through divine revelation, it says that Yahweh is a man of war. Yahweh is a man of war. We don’t have time to read Exodus 15. The whole chapter, Derek, is called the Song of Moses. It was a song that apparently Moses wrote on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It hit number one in the top 40 in his day—the Song of Moses. And if you read the whole thing, it makes these statements like this—that Yahweh is a man of war. They’re celebrating the fact that God just slaughtered Pharaoh and his army in an act of war. That was an act of war. And God was the one who did it and slaughtered all 600 chariots that belonged to Pharaoh, and killed all of his soldiers in the process.
Not a one was left, says Exodus 14 and 15. And then they’re celebrating this—the whole 2 million Jews—in a song, and they’re dancing around singing this song written by Moses. And then after that, it says, Miriam got up with all the ladies and they were dancing around with tambourines with their own song. It’s called The Song of Miriam. And you can read it in Exodus 15, and it goes like this. Pharaoh, Pharaoh. Oh, let my people go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m just [kidding]. That’s kind of how it went. Okay, that’s not in the original Hebrew or Aramaic. That’s just a modern-day rendition. You can read that in Exodus 15. And God is called a man of war. He’s also called the Lord of hosts or the Lord of armies. One of my favorite sections in the whole Bible—I remember I read this for the first time when I was in college—Joshua 5:13. God just commanded Joshua. They just crossed over the Jordan River. And then God says, okay, you’re going to go in and you need to wipe out all the Canaanites. You need to slaughter them.
Do not fear, because I’m going to lead you in battle. God said that, right? Just do what I tell you to do. Just obey. And in 13 years, they basically took over the whole land of Canaan, being led by God in war. But before they started their first battle, Joshua was probably pretty, you know, nervous. And he’s General Joshua. He’s a man of God, and he’s a warrior. He’s going to kill people. General Joshua, and he’s a believer. He’s a man of faith. And before he starts war, it says that someone appeared to him in the form of a human being—a glorious being from heaven that looked like a man. As a matter of fact, he looked like a military general. And Joshua is just blown away, looking at this figure. And this figure pulls out a sword and he’s holding this sword and it’s a heavenly being, and he looks like a man, and he looks like a general, and he is the commander of Yahweh’s army, and he’s going to lead Joshua into battle. And that is none other than the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, who was a warrior.
Derek: Who comes in Revelation 19.
Cliff: Who comes again as Yahweh’s general, leading in war in Revelation 19. That is so awesome. Anyway, so not all war is evil because you’ve got God engaging in it, and you’ve got Jesus engaging it. You’ve got God’s people that he loves and says are holy, godly saints, engaging in. I mean, if you just think about the who’s who of the Old Testament of godly people involved in war…Abraham had a standing army and he led them in battle. He was the greatest man of faith in the Old Testament. You had David, whom God loved, who was a prophet, who was a priest, who was very well saved, probably when he was a teenager. He loved God. And yet, what was he known for? He was the king. He led his armies into war and he was a valiant warrior. So much so that the refrain that they would sing about David to celebrate him is that “Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his tens of thousands.” He was a man of bloodshed. Yet he loved God, and God loved him. Nehemiah was a warrior and led his people in war. He was a godly man. And on and on it goes.
Derek: And even the book of Hebrews 11—chapter 11, verse 32: what more shall I say? For time would fail me if I were to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, and David, and Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, and so on. So actually, the author of Hebrews in the New Testament is commending the faith of men in the Old Testament who waged war.
Cliff: Yeah. And when God gave the Ten Commandments, he also gave 603 other laws to the theocracy of Israel to his people. And in Deuteronomy he gave rules for war. And he gave guidelines of how to engage in war. And he slaughtered all the Canaanites, but other, surrounding nations—you don’t go and slaughter all of them, but you can defend yourself against other nations. And he had rules about how you treat babies and women from these other nations. So God definitely led them in war. And it was interesting that those who were to lead the charge in war, every time Israel was to be engaged in a battle, it was the priests, of all things, that would blow the silver trumpets, alerting everybody that it is time to go to war.
Derek: The spiritual leaders.
Cliff: The spiritual leaders in the Old Testament, in the theocracy, were the ones who would lead the people in war.
Derek: So at baseline, the principle is that precisely because God himself ordered, led, approved of, and commanded these wars—specifically the war that you’re talking about, going into Canaan and wiping out the Canaanites—we can know for certain that war can be good. And just that’s a possibility. It’s not always evil. We can say that definitively and dogmatically. It’s not always evil.
Cliff: Yes. And the flip side is, you and I are not saying that all war is good. Which, we could easily be taken out of context [on this].
Derek: Yes. That’s right.
Cliff: And that is not at all what we’re saying. But I will say that every time God commanded a war, spearheaded a war, or led a war, it was always a good war, a just war, and a holy war. It was never an evil or wrong war, when God did it.
Derek: You need to have that clarity of thinking. You need to be able to say that not every war is evil. But that does not mean every war is good. And that was excellent. That’s very helpful. As we think about nations, what texts can we think about? And I don’t want to jump ahead if you if you have more to say, Cliff. I was going to take us into some New Testament texts to consider. But anything more that you wanted to say in terms of Old Testament wars?
Cliff: Oh, yeah. Just let me read two short verses. This idea that God was involved in war and led war in his name, and at times refers to himself as warrior, which we already said. But one of my favorite prayers in the Bible is from Hannah. Now, this is a woman. So here are you and I, a couple of, you know, masculine men talking about war. Good women would never say that, right? Wrong! Miriam, as we already saw, wrote a song about war, celebrating war and celebrating killing Pharaoh. Here’s another woman, Hannah—a very feminine woman, and a godly woman. Chapter two. An inspired prayer. She wrote down the whole thing. And it’s a beautiful theology of God, and of the attributes of God. And one of the attributes is that he is a God of wrath. He’s a God of holiness. He is a God of justice. He’s a God who spearheads war against his enemies. And she literally says this in 1 Samuel chapter two: the Lord, or Yahweh, kills. And he brings down to the grave. That’s how you need to view the God of the Bible. The Lord kills. He makes a life, and he brings down to the grave, and he raises up. There’s that beautiful balance. In Deuteronomy 32:39, Moses writes this down. Actually, it’s God talking about himself, and God says, there is no God besides me. I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal. That’s God talking about himself.
Derek: Those are crucial, crucial truths. And I appreciate that you brought in Hannah. That was helpful, because you’re right. Men are probably just going to be more apt to talk about war and to see the usefulness of it, and to see that godly women also can celebrate the wars that are just and good and right, and the fact that God Himself is the one who may wage just war. Now just turning to the New Testament, and we can go back and forth however you think would be best, Cliff. But I want to bring up Romans 13, because Romans 13 talks about the state and how God has established governments for a specific purpose. And so I want to turn to Romans 13 and look at that, because I think this passage, though, specifically talking about a country’s internal justice and bearing the sword for protecting its people on the inside. I think there is no problem seeing this as relating specifically to a nation protecting its people from threats from the outside. So Paul writes this. He says in Romans 13 chapter 13, verse one: let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.
Okay, so just to review in this text, Paul is saying that God has established governing authorities. They’re actually for our good. And they bear the ability to use force, coercive force. That’s what the sword means here. They can bring about certain punishments, including death. That’s why it includes the word sword there, in order to enforce what is good and to put down what is evil. And Paul says they do this. God has established this for your good. It is good for you, Christian, and everybody else. Just so you know, it’s good for you, Christian, when nations exercise force, coercive force, in order to protect what is good and to bring down what is evil. When they do that, societies flourish. People are safe and protected. They can go about their business without fear. And a whole host of good things happen within a society when the governments are doing their job, namely to protect their people from what is evil, not just by telling people to be nice, but actually enforcing justice within the country itself. Now, if it’s the nation’s responsibility to protect its people from threats on the inside, you can certainly say that it’s the nation’s responsibility to protect its people from the same threats when they come from the outside. So I would say that Romans 13 is also an important text for establishing a biblical warrant for nations engaging in self-defensive war in order to protect their people from evil. And if you are an evil doer and you want to go commit evil against a nation, [you should] fear, because they have every right from God to retaliate and to use the sword in the defense of their people. And so I think this is an important text for this very purpose, Cliff—to defend the idea that Christians and nations can defend themselves from countries that want to do them harm.
Cliff: Yeah. And God’s consistent about that all throughout history and in the Bible—what you just said—because, in the Mosaic Law, there was a provision there. God told Moses and Joshua, when you go in, take this land that I gave you. And if people beyond those borders come in and try to invade your land, you have the right to defend yourself through means of war. So same thing with Abraham in Genesis 14. He was allowed by God to defend himself. The parallel passage to Romans 13 is in 1 Peter 2, which says similarly, therefore submit yourselves, Christians, to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king who is supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by God for the punishment of evildoers. There it is—punishment. So that’s what government is supposed to do. Their most basic, fundamental job, which would include the military, is to punish evildoers and to protect the innocent.
Derek: Now, Cliff, we haven’t talked about this yet, and I just want to get your thoughts on it, but throughout the Christian tradition, there has been the development of what’s been called the just war theory. Now, it’s not something that’s exclusively Christian anymore, but it could be argued that it was developed first by a Christian, namely Augustine, back in the fifth century. And I want to know if you have any thoughts about just war theory and its helpfulness or its usefulness. Can you make a case? Can we take biblical principles, apply it to a potential conflict in the world, and say, this is or this isn’t a just war? I have a few points here that have been distilled by a Christian ethicist—a few specific points that can be used as criteria to determine that question. But any thoughts specifically on just war theory?
Cliff: Yeah, and by just war, you mean a legitimate war. A good war. Holy war, whatever you want to call it. Not in the Islamic sense of killing people in the name of religion. Holy meaning in the legitimate sense that God is holy. God is perfect. God is sinless. God always does the right thing. So when I say holy war, God conducted holy wars in the Old Testament. They were always for a right reason, done to the right extent, done in the right way, for the right purpose and goal. A holy, as in pure, in terms of its motive, which we would call a just war. And you’re right, you know, Augustine was known as the origin of just war theory, or at least the beginning of it. And prior to Augustine, in the four hundreds, you had the early church after the apostles. We have some of their writings, like you mentioned Tertullian a little bit and others who didn’t have a balanced view of war. They were, for the most part, pacifists. Tertullian, as you said, was just a complete, pure pacifist at all times, which is not the biblical view. So when you had Augustine arise, he’s such a great theologian in so many different ways for such a long period of time. He’s just trying to look at the whole counsel of God in Scripture and then try to systematize it all together. And so he had a more realistic view of a biblical view of war, the nuances, and the balance. It needs to be there. And there’s good reason why John Calvin’s favorite theologian was Augustine, because he talked about just about everything, and he wanted to do it from the Bible. And Augustine didn’t always get it right. And he knew he didn’t always get it right. But I think he asked every major question that any Christian is going to ask today and tried to grapple with it. So yeah, I think Augustine was on the right track.
Derek: Well, that’s helpful. And I just wanted to, as we bring this episode to a close, I did want to just mention a few points of criteria that have grown out of this just war theory to show that there is some real rich, biblical rooting here in terms of helping us think through what might be a just war. So just a few thoughts here. I’m taking this out of Wayne Grudem’s ethics book, which I recommend. It’s really good. And he has a big section in there on war and, this is where he offers these points of criteria for determining whether or not a conflict is a just war. He’s taking it from just war theory and puts a biblical text next to each one here to show that this is growing up out of Scripture. And these are excellent principles to consider. Is there a just cause for the war? Is it rising from a legitimate and competent authority? Speaking of comparative justice, as in that relates to the just cause. If you are going into battle, is it for the sake of justice and can you defend it morally? Do you have just and right motives? Obviously that would flow from it being a just cause. Is this the last resort? Have you tried other options so that you’re not just launching into war because you have a blood lust, but you’ve really tried to settle things and this is the last resort? Is there a likelihood of success? He’s taking that from Luke 14:31, where Jesus says, you should count the cost. He’s talking about discipleship there, but the principle fits anything. You need to count the cost, whether it’s war or whether you’re building something in the backyard. There needs to be a proportionality of projected results, meaning that you’re going to use a certain amount of force and anticipate a certain amount of loss, but it’s going to bring a greater gain. It needs to be done in the right spirit. So again, this isn’t a bloodlust. You’re not eager to kill. There needs to be proportionality in the use of force or you’re not using excessive force. And I thought that was interesting. That earlier definition you gave from Strong’s that’s in the previous episode. They talked about excessive force as almost being essential to the definition of war. And I don’t know if I would agree with that. I don’t I think there’s force that’s adequate. So I probably would disagree with Strong’s at that point. You know what I’m saying?
Cliff: Yeah, I thought the same thing. That’s a weird word.
Derek: So they would say proportionality needs to happen in the use of force, and that there is such a thing as excessive force. But it’s not necessary that every time you’re engaging in war, you’re using excessive force. That’s probably subjective based on people’s opinion on how much they like or dislike war. You need to discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. You avoid evil means. And then finally you have good faith, namely a desire for restoration of that country, that nation, at the end. And so, again, these are being drawn out of biblical principles. It provides a helpful criteria for judging the justice of a particular war. And it’s growing out of a Christian tradition, namely just war theory. And I just think that’s helpful, honestly. Without scripture, without the word of God, we’re not going to be able to determine what is just and what isn’t. And so this is crucial, which is precisely why you want to continue to pray for a strong Christian influence in this country. Because when it comes to things like determining justice or the injustice of a particular war, you can’t do that if you’re not thinking from biblical principles.
Cliff: Yes, and I would agree that Wayne Grudem is talking about a Christian ethic for us today. For the church.
Derek: Yes.
Cliff: Because what he said there would be different than what God told Moses under the theocracy of Israel, because they would have a different set of rules, right? Like Deuteronomy chapter 30 or Deuteronomy 20 and 21, God lays out the rules of war, and God’s the one who’s leading Israel into war, right? Then there’s that transition from the Old Testament theocracy to the new entity of the church, which is primarily spiritual and in a different manifestation of the kingdom of God where we have a whole new set of rules about war.
Derek: Yeah, and that’s a good point. I think that’s probably where some of the complexity would have come into play as we think about applying these to our present situation. But yeah, he’s saying that this is how Christians are to think about the present engagement with war and the necessity for it. And I mean, that’s a great point because we’re no longer under the theocracy. So we’re going to grapple with these things differently. But even having said that, there may be some of these criteria that we shouldn’t just assume are strictly biblical, and that we need to take back to Scripture and reassess. But I think for the most part, these are helpful principles that are growing out of a Christian tradition and trying to grapple with just war. Well, when we come back, I want to ask questions related to pacifism, Cliff, because I think not only do some Christians hold to that position, but at times it seems like that is just naturally the biblical position—that we should all be pacifists. So we need to address that issue directly. And then we’ll also cover a couple last questions under that heading as well. And before we go, I just want to remind you to check out withallwisdom.org for all the resources that we’ve provided—written resources, video resources, audio resources. And until next time, keep seeking the Lord in His word.
