In the first of this two-part series, pastors Derek and Cliff discuss two ways that Christians often relate to the government and how neither of these approaches fully account for all that Scripture teaches.
Derek: Welcome to the With All Wisdom podcast. My name is Derek Brown. I am pastor and elder at Creekside Bible Church in Cupertino, California. I am here with Cliff McManis. He is pastor teacher at Creekside, and we are both professors of theology at the Cornerstone Bible College and Seminary in Vallejo, California. And today we are going to do a two-part series. First we are going to start with talking about how Christians should relate to government and explaining the various ways that Christians typically do, running to various extremes and we will highlight the ways in which Christians typically think wrongly about how we should relate to government. And then we will follow up with a part two that talks about how Christians speaking positively, how Christians should relate to government. But before we get to our topic, I want to remind you to check out WithAllWisdom.org where you will find a large and growing collection of audio and written resources that are all rooted in God’s Word with the design to help you grow in your relationship with the Lord. And with that I want to turn it over to Cliff so he can lead us through this conversation of how Christians typically relate to government and how Christians should relate to government.
Cliff: Yeah, thanks, Derek. So the topic today that I wanted to explore from Scripture is a topic that usually comes to us. Most of these podcasts that we are doing, Derek, are, you know, some people might want to know, why did you choose that topic? And as I look back at all of our podcasts, most of them, at least for me, were driven by conversations I am having with people in our church, our members, or Christians who have questions. They are practical, they are relevant, they are pertinent to what is going on in their life right now. So they are pastorally kind of driven. And I think that is a good thing because we want to be practical. We are not just doing this stuff for an academic purpose. So that is what drives me and you as shepherds and elders of our local church. The Bible has the answer. We believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. So recently, and this is probably, I know there has just been a lot going on in terms of, you know, the government and for the last several years, not just during COVID, but there has been an ongoing conversation among our members and Christians and even other believers that I know outside of our church talking about the prospects of the landscape here in our country regarding government and our leaders. And most of that, from their perspective, they are negative. In other words, they are discouraged. In other words, they do not have hope. Some recent conversations I’ve had with some of our members, just them asking me questions, wow, what do you think about the government, Pastor Cliff? And it seems like it’s going into the tank. And doesn’t it seem to you like the leaders are getting worse and worse and evil as the days go by and the years go by? And in those conversations, I just kind of probe a little bit to see what their thinking is. What do they think the Bible has to say about all this? Questions that are practical like, well, do you think the government officials that are in charge today are worse than they’ve been in the past? And a lot of times they say yes. So I kind of get that theme once again of if we could just go back to the good old glory days, which you and I, we’ve done a podcast on that. And a lot of times I think people think that way from maybe a lack of knowledge regarding history or they just forget about history.
You and I have talked about this. Our government officials today is our governor, our mayor, our president, those in charge in the Senate and House of Republican, just authority positions here in America. Are they worse now than they’ve ever been in the history of America? And are our leaders today worse than they’ve ever been in the history of the world? Are lost people more evil today than lost people from 2,000 years ago? I mean, it’s almost what we’re hearing. No. Is a sinful person more sinful today than sinful people 2,000 years ago? No. That would be our perspective. And then just COVID did force the issue to people to articulate and speak about their views regarding government and the Bible. And we learned a lot from our people and what other people think. So this is just one other manifestation of how to think about government on a biblical perspective, but not being driven specifically just by the COVID issue. It’s just a generic truth that I want to look to today about what the Bible has to say about how Christians should relate to their government in practical ways. And so I want to do that in two parts. One part is just kind of looking at the perspective of what Christians shouldn’t do or how they shouldn’t think regarding government. And then part two, look at what should we do, right? Priorities. So looking kind of at that negative side and answering the question, how should Christians relate to government? I wanted to address the two ways that a lot of Christians think about government, maybe in unbalanced ways and two extremes. And I’ll just to simplify, here are the two extremes that I see a lot of Christians doing regarding how they relate to government. The two words are reform or reject, reform or reject. And then those would be the two ends of a spectrum. And then I’d say Christians are somewhere on that spectrum between those two extremes. And I’d say those are unbalanced and unbiblical approaches. Some Christians want to reform the government in illegitimate ways. We see a lot of this today. And it manifests itself in a lot of different ways. And these are a problem. The extremes are always a problem, but the extremes seem to always pop up and are true about any given issue in the Christian community. And that’s probably just due to human nature. We just lack balance in our thinking on just about every topic. And that’s why we need God’s word to guide us. Otherwise, left to ourselves, we’re going to go to an illegitimate extreme. And that’s true in how we think about government.
So here are the two, just a word and kind of diagnose what are these two extremes that we should avoid as Christians. And on the one side, the Christian’s goal is to reform the government, whether it’s local government all the way up to federal government. And what I mean by this, there are Christians pastors who are even and theologians who are writing on this. They advocate this. They promote this. They use a lot of different terminology regarding it. They use scriptures to say that this is a mandate that we have, that we need to reform the government. I was introduced to this years back when somebody was going to join our church and they asked me, what do I think about urban ministry? What are you guys doing for urban ministry here? How are you tackling urban ministry? Just kept using that phrase, catchphrase, urban ministry, urban ministry is a technical phrase. I didn’t know what they were talking about. But then I found out. And it’s, what are you doing as a church to redeem society, to redeem the city, to redeem the culture, to redeem the institutions and the structures all about us. And I was like, what? Well, we’re not doing anything to do that. And they were surprised and shocked and disappointed and eventually left our church because we weren’t redeeming society. That was not a priority. So that was one of my introductions to this, this idea of what a Christian needs to do and your attitude towards politics and government is you need to reform it. And so Mark Driscoll has written a lot on this and he was real popular. And he’s just one voice of a movement. But literally in his book on the church, that’s the phraseology he uses that the priority and mission of the church is to quote, and he uses the word redeem, redeem society. And then he gives practical ways to do it. You move into, you and you identify and prioritize big cities because we need to redeem the cities. Because if you win the city, you’ll win the rest of everything else, the suburbs and everything else that goes with it. And we need to redeem society and redeem the institutions and Christianize everything.
Derek: Okay. That was going to be my question. By that, by Christianize, Christian businesses and government.
Cliff: Yes. So what do you mean, Mark Driscoll, that we got to redeem society? Well, you move into the cities and you take over, you infiltrate, you try to Christianize school systems, the city council, get as many Christians on city council as you can on the school board, the public school board. You take it over, you Christianize it, you sanctify it. You rule it on behalf of God. You bring in the millennium. We need to take over media. We need to Christianize and redeem even the entertainment industry. We need to send more Christians to Hollywood so we can have more Christian TV and more Christian movies. And we need to Christianize the entire economic system. And the biggest target is we need to Christianize government and have government, Christian candidates run for government at every level. And if we could just have a born again, Bible believing, reformed Christian take over the presidency, then we would fix this country. This is this idea of reforming government. And so, I mean, it goes by a lot of different names. Sometimes they use the term reconstruction as their formal theological movement. Sometimes people call it theonomy, which is two words, theo, God, and nomos, law. We are bringing the law of God into society where God reigns supreme, really like a theocracy. So they would say, yes, we need to turn the United States into a theocracy. And I would say, no, we don’t. We do have a theocracy, and I would say it’s the church, but not the United States or any other country like that. Other theological systems that might be prone to this would be those who believe in preterism or post-millennialism. One of their key passages is Genesis chapter one, and they call where God told Adam to rule on his behalf and over everything. And they call that the cultural mandate. So anyway, and so as a result, practically, what does that look like is that we need to be not just politically involved and politically aware, which I think is a good thing.
Derek: I was going to ask you, so Christians should have some engagement with politics and working in government.
Cliff: Absolutely. Yep. Hence, we want to find the balance, but I think they’re going to extreme. So instead of just saying politically aware, even politically contributing, they are politically aggressive, overly politically proactive. I think they’re overly optimistic about what they can actually change on a political level. Almost political extremists. They’re politically driven. And there’s a lot of Christians like that. And they’re just, they’re so discouraged. Our political movements and our candidates didn’t win, and there’s no hope for the church or God or America. Like, no, that’s the wrong attitude. That’s not a biblical frame of mind or a biblical worldview.
Derek: Yeah, it’s like their hope for the kingdom is so linked with the future of the country that if the future looks bleak for the country, the future for the kingdom looks bleak. That’s a wrong approach.
Cliff: Yeah. And I think that’s part of the problem is they’re linking the kingdom of God with the kingdom of America.
Derek: Yeah, right.
Cliff: And that would be an old adage. I just heard it recently again from another Christian who’s been a believer for a long time, just saying, yeah, we used to be a Christian nation and we need to get back to being a Christian nation, but we’ve exhausted that ad nauseam. America is not a Christian nation. So in light of this kind of extremist, we need to reform society or redeem society. There are some basic problems with that from a biblical point of view. One is we don’t redeem societies, institutions and nations or structures. We only redeem people, only people, only individuals can be redeemed according to the Bible. And actually we don’t do what God does. So that’s just kind of a no brainer. We don’t redeem cities and structures and institutions. Another problem with that view is they lose sight of the mission of the church saying that, well, it’s the cultural mandate of Genesis 1, 27 and their interpretation of that.
Cliff: Now the mission of the church, Jesus gave it in every one of the gospels and in Acts chapter 1, and it’s clear and it’s the same. And it’s at a spiritual level, not a crassly material, earthly level. And it’s the great commission. It’s the proclamation of the gospel making disciples to the ends of the earth, to the ends of the ages, to all nations with a spiritual message of the life, the death, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and how he died for sinners, that he might give them life and reign as king. So that’s our mission. So with this reformation, reconstructionist attitude, it really muddies the waters in terms of what is the mission of the church. And then the last problem with this is this view, and I already alluded to this, it puts too much confidence in government and in politics and what a Christian should expect from government. So I just had two little verses that I think every Christian should maybe even write down, memorize it, think about it, meditate it on it frequently, because we do live in a world constantly that has government authorities. Government is just something we have to deal with the rest of our life. That’s the way God made the earth.
So how should we think of government rulers and political officials, from the local city council to the mayor, to state senators, to the governor of our state, and then to federal officials and the president? And it’s never really changed. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:8, he referred to the governors of this age, two times that phrase he used, the governors of this, or the rulers of this age, he said, the rulers of this age. And he was talking about political and government authorities at every level. And it’s clear in 1 Corinthians 2 that Paul is basically saying they’re unwise, they are unbelieving, those are the two words that he uses. They’re foolish, they’re pagans, they’re evil, but they have the authority. They rule. So let’s just get used to it, Christian. Let’s embrace that truth. Let’s not expect too much of our rulers, because this is the state of affairs and has been all throughout history. The rulers of this age are evil. 1 Corinthians 2:8, and then Jesus even said that himself in Matthew 20, 25, as he’s talking to his 12 apostles to prepare them for the kind of leaders he wanted them to be for the church. Don’t be leaders like the political officials and all those rulers, because it’s very different. I want you guys as leaders to be servants. That is not how the leaders of this world are. Matthew 20:25, Jesus said, the rulers of the Gentiles, that means all the rulers of the world. The rulers of the Gentiles, they lord it over the people. So Jesus is saying that’s just how they do it. From the time of, whether it was Pharaoh in the days of Moses to Nebuchadnezzar in the days of Daniel to Nero in the days of Paul, that’s always been true and it always will be. Those who wield authority, for the most part, are going to be unbelievers, and at some point they’re probably going to compromise their leadership, usurp God’s authority, and become self-centered, or they are self-centered, they will become oppressive, and they will lord it over the people. And Jesus is basically saying that’s the way it is, you just expect it. That’s reality.
Derek: It’s funny, you mentioned 1 Corinthians 2:8, and it’s like, how do you know that the rulers of this age are evil? Because Paul goes on to say that they’re the ones who crucified the Lord of Glory. So that’s what the rulers of this age will do. They’ll crucify the Lord of Glory. The Lord of Glory, the Creator, will come to this earth and they will crucify him. And so the rulers of this age are indeed evil, bent on evil, and so that’s an important element, like you said, for Christians to get used to.
Cliff: Yeah, when you get any scratch under the surface of what their evil is, what’s the core of it? It’s John 7, when Jesus said, the world hates me. It’s really directed towards Christ and God, actually. And anybody affiliated with God or Christ, that’s why Jesus said, because the world hates me, they will also hate you. So Christians should not be disillusioned by their government officials of being evil, wicked, sinful, making horrible legislation that flies in the face of the Bible, trying to take away your rights, all this persecution, overt immorality. That’s kind of par for the course.
Derek: Are you saying unbelievers will act like unbelievers?
Cliff: That is exactly what I’m saying. That is a profound insight. Unbelievers will act like unbelievers. So that’s the Christians who have this reform the government mentality. That’s one end of the extreme. The other end of the extreme would be, not reform, but Christians who, regarding government, it’s reject government. Reject politics, reject government. This manifests itself in a lot of different ways to varying degrees. They will either just ignore politics, or just kind of clueless. They kind of don’t care. They dismiss it. Not interested. They dismiss government. They’re ignorant of politics, ignorant of what they’re doing, ignorant of laws, ignorant of government. Sometimes this class of Christians, the rejection people, they come up with conspiracy theories and ideas about the government. They become suspicious of the government. They become anti-government as an institution. They want to be independent maverick operators and just go around government and try to get rid of a government or eradicate government altogether. So this is the extreme where, as the first group of the reformers, that’s kind of the theocracy mentality. Let’s Christianize the government. This is the opposite, and it’s kind of an anarchist attitude. No government, no rule outside of Jesus, the Bible, and church. I know Christians like this who have an anarchist. They would say they’re Christian anarchists.
Cliff: Yeah, we have some in our church. I don’t know if you know that.
Derek: I did not know that.
Cliff: We used to. I know for sure. They’re interesting when they use the Bible and they try to explain it through Scripture. You know, they will say even things like, well, Paul, and you know, he got killed, and Peter got killed by, you know, political officials who resisted. So they’re resisting the law. They’re anarchists. This can also manifest itself when Christians have the wrong attitude of government and politics, so much so that they want to ignore it altogether and not even pay attention. They’re neglecting basic biblical commands, like 1 Timothy 2 that says pray for all of your government officials, and they don’t. Other manifestations I’ve seen of it, this resistance to government, dismissing it, bypassing it, ignoring it as though we don’t need it. God didn’t create government. Well, I can live without government. They’re all evil anyway, and so they don’t pay their taxes. So I know Christians and Christian movements that don’t pay their taxes.
Cliff: Yeah, IRS tax. For example, there’s an entire, unfortunately, it’s a homeschool movement. When we raised our kids, some of them homeschool, so I used to go to homeschool conferences, and you would meet all kinds of interesting people there, people that are like-minded with you, and then just some very unique views that Christians held, and there’s an entire movement within the Christian world. These just happen to be homeschoolers, and they have pretty significant theology to back their case that they don’t need to pay income tax. And so they’re explaining this to me from a biblical point of view, because they’re saying, well, it’s unconstitutional. It’s not in the Constitution. God says obey the law, so we obey the Constitution. Anything not in the Constitution, we don’t obey. Therefore, I don’t pay my–now, this was a pastor talking to me. So you’re a pastor, and you don’t pay your income tax. And he said, that’s right.
Derek: It doesn’t seem like a movement that could last very long, just by definition, because eventually you’re going to get in trouble.
Cliff: Well, do you remember Ken Hovind? Have you ever heard of him? He was an apologist, very well-known Christian leader, educator. Well, he was one of those guys. He ended up in jail. He ended up in jail. He got out of jail eventually, but he’s very well-known.
Cliff: Yeah. He would just be one example. So they defy- I know some of these churches and even Christian colleges and institutions who hold this extremist reject politics and government at all costs of view, that they don’t apply for 501c3 status as a church.
Derek: Wow. Wow.
Cliff: So we’re a church, and we are not going to file for 501c3 because that’s compromise, that’s giving to the government, that’s disobeying God, that’s allowing illegitimate control and seizure of government intervention in the institution of the church. And we are not going to do that. That displeases God. Whereas I’m thinking, I don’t think so. Our church, we comply with 501c3. I don’t think it’s unbiblical. I don’t think it’s a compromise, but these Christians do. And they’re Christian colleges, and that’s why they won’t get accredited, among other things. We don’t need the government’s, the pagan government’s approval for our academic standards, among other things. So their posture is completely antagonistic to the idea of government altogether outside of the church. So those are the two extremes. Reform the government, being overly political, and then the other extreme, rejecting government altogether wholesale to the point where you’re even violating basic scriptural principles.
Derek: I mean, the mentioning of the not paying the taxes, in a sense, I can sympathize with their sentiments in that you see the government spending money on all kinds of things that are not only that you disapprove of personally, but in some cases are just flat out immoral. And you’re like, I don’t want to pay into that. And so that’s the feeling. But then you go to scripture and Paul instructs you to pay taxes to whom they are due. And so why ask that?
Cliff: Well, I asked the pastor that. So you don’t pay IRS taxes? No. And you’re not in jail yet? I said, well, I’ve avoided it so far. And so, but then I quoted Romans 13. Pay your taxes. Jesus said the same thing. Pay your taxes. And he said, well, that’s legitimate taxes. So he doesn’t mind paying sales tax at Safeway for service or going to a restaurant. But IRS, that is completely, and he had two arguments. It’s not in the Constitution, number one. And then number two, for the very reason you said, so I am giving money to the government, the government’s taking some of that money through that tax to do ungodly things with it, like fund abortions. So I’m not going to pay for abortions. Therefore, I’m not going to pay taxes in that area.
Derek: But he’s willing to comply with a state sales tax, which I would think still goes in the state coffers to pay for things that I don’t agree with.
Cliff: Yes. And that’s why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5, that if you’re going to boycott sin and unbelievers, you’d have to leave the world because you just couldn’t live.
Cliff: You couldn’t do anything.
Derek: That’s right.
Cliff: Everything about you, the clothes you wear was made by a pagan.
Derek: That’s right.
Cliff: The food you eat was harvested, grown by a pagan. You just can’t get away from sin and sinners who make up this world.
Derek: Right. Wow.
Cliff: So, but that’s a reality. The Christians, they’re out there. And so the goal here in these two episodes is, number one, be aware of the extremes. We have Christians who may be leaning towards one of these extremes, and they’re not necessarily a part of the movement formally. They’re not theonomists, but they might lean this way towards Reformation, or they’re just overly excited and involved in politics. Or maybe they’re on the anarchist bent, but maybe it’s just a part of their personality. They’re just kind of independent operators anyway. I don’t like people telling me what to do. I know a lot of Christians like that. I’m actually kind of like that. But in terms of the extreme here, for most of my Christian life, I definitely lean towards the reform side of we need to fix government. So I was very politically involved, or at least aware, putting way too much trust and optimism in the political system. Kind of a believer in the mission of the moral majority from the 1980s, getting the right conservative candidate. And definitely that’s where I leaned. And just over the years, that’s been modified in light of biblical teaching and the biblical balance and coming to the realization that, no, God’s in charge. He’s sovereign. He established government. Every government official that is in place, whether he’s wicked to the core or committed is just the basics of upholding justice. God put him there. He’s accountable to God. First and foremost, as Christians, we need to trust God. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So we need to be living in the balance between these two extremes in a biblical way, which we addressed in an earlier podcast. Jesus said it better than anybody. And that’s render to God the things that belong to God, and then render to Caesar the things that belong to Caesar. And there are things that legitimately belong to Caesar. Honor, taxes, certain laws. I think in our church on these two extremes, we saw these two extremes during COVID.
Derek: That’s right.
Cliff: We’ve talked a little bit about it. So from the reform side to the anarchist rejection side. So on the reform side would be people who, one of the manifestations of it was wanting to comply and recognize the rights of government almost to an illegitimate extreme, basically saying that the government has authority over the church. And so we had to mitigate against that and say, well, no, the church is under the authority of God. The government doesn’t have authority over the church. There are clear lines of demarcation there. But then people in our church also, especially early on in COVID, were on the anarchist rejection side, and they didn’t want to comply or listen to anything that the president had to say at the time or the CDC or local officials. And why are we closing the church? And why are you making people wear masks? And then you had to explain it to them. No, we need to live in that balance there. There are some things that are legitimate here regarding these precautions. But pastorally, it was difficult because we were blindsided. We didn’t see this coming. And it took a while just to get our bearings. And I don’t think I fully still have my bearings yet. Pastorally, I’m still fielding questions on this, very practical ones. And sometimes those questions are hard and you gotta, you know, I need time to think about this one. I gotta go do some research. I gotta call some other pastors and elders and get some godly counsel and see what their church is doing. I’m still doing that as our elders are. So anyway, so that’s just part one of the main thing, just laying the groundwork here to, you know, kind of examine yourself. And as a Christian, how do you think about government? How do you relate to it? Where are you on that spectrum? By the way, I was gonna ask you, Derek, where do you land or where have you landed historically as a Christian towards government on the reform side or the anarchist side?
Derek: So I think historically, I’ve been a Christian for about 23 years. And I would say that I’ve probably bounced between those two extremes. And I believe I’ve come to a more balanced position now. So I was someone early on who just, not as an anarchist, but just saw no place in government for Christians, no use wasting my time thinking about it. Politics is a distraction of being aware of those things. It doesn’t matter. Like, you know, Jesus is coming back soon. We got things to take care of.
Cliff: Was that earlier on in your Christian life?
Derek: Yeah, early on.
Cliff: Now that you say that, you’re jogging my memory. Because that was probably the first five plus years of my Christian life. That is exactly how I thought. So I was completely, I was totally disengaged. Didn’t know what was going on. Didn’t care. Didn’t want to know. Didn’t read the newspaper. And there were a lot of significant things that happened during that seven-year span. When I look back, I was like, where was I?
Derek: I know. And looking back, I wish I would have been a little more engaged. And then I think in response to that, maybe it was in response or reaction to that kind of view and reading some more things and hearing more things, I felt like I swung over to a view of we need to be heavily engaged as individuals and as the church and hit government and politics head on. I wouldn’t, I don’t think I would ever have said I went to the theonomist extreme of things. But I was definitely moving more in that direction. And now I think where I’m at is that Christians should have some engagement. They need to be aware of the laws. They need to be engaged. If you are in politics, a politician, you need to do your work hardly as under the Lord. You need to think and plan and think about laws that are truly beneficial and helpful for society. And as Christians who are not in government, we need to have awareness of what is actually being passed in the legislature and laws that are being passed. And as we’ll see in our next part, we need to be actively praying and to do good where God has placed us. And he might place us with a small group of people we can influence. And he might have placed us in government positions and those things. We need to do good. We need to be rich in good works as the scripture commands us to. So that’s where I’m at. I also think that scripture, because you have a theocracy in the Old Testament, you have a lot of wise things that were in place in Israel that you can look at and be like, there’s some good principles here. I’m not going to attempt to turn America into a Christian nation. But I do think as I talk to other people about politics and laws and these kinds of things, I think there is wisdom from scripture that I can bring into that conversation that will be helpful and hopefully have a positive influence. So that’s where I’m at. I don’t know what I would call myself.
Cliff: But moving from that, just a quick question, moving from that first phase to where you began to change your view the first time, from just total disengagement to having a different perspective, do you remember anything significant as a catalyst that challenged your thinking? Was it a preacher, a book? Was it just reading the Bible? Was it experience? Do you remember anything specific?
Derek: Yeah, I think it probably was a combination of… So I came to Christ at age 19 and it was probably a combination of hearing some other theologians, reading some things, reading the Bible, but also like growing up and like now I have to pay my own taxes. I have to be concerned about other important issues of life and community. So I’m growing up and now I’m forced to really start thinking about these things and I can’t take the convenient route of I’m just going to ignore it. I was forced to start thinking about it.
Cliff: That is such a good point that you just made when you actually get a real job.
Derek: Right, exactly.
Cliff: You get your first paycheck and you look at it and you look at the amount that was taken out of taxes and you just flip out. I had four kids and I remember the day all four of them got their first paycheck and the exact same reaction. What in the world? The government’s taking all my money. It’s like welcome to reality. That’s right. Welcome to adulthood.
Derek: So you wake up and you’re like, okay, I need to be, maybe I need to be a little more engaged. Right. And then you start having kids and especially during COVID laws are being made with regard to where we can go and what we can do and what your kids can do and you start thinking about those things. So you’re just forced, you grow up, you get married, you have kids, you have a job, you engage in people in your community. If you’re not married, the way laws are made and the way politics work in your particular location, it just forces you to engage or go live under a rock, which is not an option for the Christian. So it just, those kinds of things forced me to engage.
Cliff: No, that’s a great point.
Derek: Well, Cliff, that was an excellent introduction. Part one, talking about how Christians relate to government, offering a couple of negative ways that we typically do. Now we’re going to go in part two. When we come back, we’re going to talk about how Christians should relate to the government and offer some positive counsel in that regard. We hope to have you back here for part two and until then keep seeking the Lord and his word.
Listen to All Past Episodes in our Podcast Archive